Transforming self-perception: Petra Williams on authenticity, hope, and expression

[00:00:00]

Intro

Petra Williams: We set ourselves these, these standards that we hear on podcasts, YouTube videos and self help books, but Those things aren't necessarily right for us. Then when we don't reach these insurmountable mountains in our own lives, We think there's something wrong with us. And then we land up feeling so bad about ourselves, and there's such self loathing and hatred that comes with that. And that just turns into a vicious cycle

Welcome to the Design Feeling Podcast

Speaker: hi, my name is Nirish Shakya and welcome to today's episode of the Design Feeding Podcast. I'm here at my brother's place in Sydney, Australia. 

Meet Petra Williams

Speaker: I recently gave a talk here at the Sydney Design Thinking Meetup, and that's where I met my guest for today's episode, Petra Williams.

Petra is a global motivational speaker, qualified life coach, presenter, and a poet of 10 years. In this episode we delve into the different layers of our identity and how understanding how each of those layers thinks and acts [00:01:00] can help us make more empowered choices in life.

Petra also talks about the importance of both internal self reflection and external support networks. And stay tuned to hear Petra's own personal story of overcoming fear and shame to live more authentically and her journey of then going on to become a coach to help others. And,

And congratulations to Jason Davey for winning a signed copy of the highly anticipated book Designing Tomorrow by Martin Tomic and Steve Beatty. And if you missed out last time, don't worry. We have one more signed copy of the book to give away. To be in a chance to win that signed copy, all you have to do is comment on our social media post or maybe private message me directly on any of my social media channels or you can just email me at [00:02:00]nirish@designfeeling.co

co with the response to the question What would you like to design about tomorrow? and the best response picked by Martin and Steve will win a signed copy of their book Designing Tomorrow. And now let's get into the episode.

Nirish Shakya: Petra Williams. Welcome to Design Feeling.

Have you been

Petra Williams: I am so great and so pumped to be here. So yeah, ready to get going.

Nirish Shakya: great stuff? Well, thank you so much for reaching out. Cause, um, yeah, we met at the recent Sydney design thinking meet up where I was, uh, a speaker and, uh, it was great to meet you there. And, um, listen to some of your thoughts around, um, yeah, designing your own life, taking agency of your own life. And I think we are pretty much along the same wavelength when it comes to, yeah, taking that agency, whether that's in your, career as a designer or, you know, what, what you [00:03:00] want to do in life.

So, yeah. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really excited for this conversation. and where it's going to go.

Petra Williams: Yeah, me too. And I, I love how the universe works, you know, like how, how it brings us together, you know, with the right people at the right time. So yeah, that was just fantastic. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Exciting.

Nirish Shakya: Great. Well, first of all, I'm sure, you know, people must be wondering who is Petra Williams. Now there is a generic question that I can ask, you know, Hey, tell me about yourself, but I want to put a slightly different twist to it. So let's imagine that people are watching a movie about Petra Williams, right?

The movie has started. The movie is titled Petra. What, what can they expect to see in the opening scene?

Petra Williams: Oh, I love this. I love talking about myself. It's my favorite topic. 

Petra's Adventurous Life

Petra Williams: Um, opening scene with me, me standing at Mount Everest [00:04:00] with the blind man that I just lit up there with my arms open wide Laughing and smiling and just embracing life. And that's really, I run my life at a hundred miles an hour.

I love adventure. I love living life. You know, I've been to 41 countries. I've done some really cool things. As I said, Blind man to Mount Everest. I've ridden a motorbike through Vietnam. I've skydived over the Swiss Alps out of a helicopter. And for me, I just, I love living life. And what's really important for me is I love sharing.

Um, I love giving the people, people the knowledge to make better choices. And those are the two things that really excite me. And so, probably what you'll see is being on Mount Everest with the blind guy. Well, we called him the blind guy, aka the blind guy. [00:05:00] And, uh, his name is Trevor. And, um, but also the, the Everest is also, um, have my arms open, welcoming others to join me on the journey.

Nirish Shakya: So yes, I did read that you have been to Everest. When you say you're standing on Everest, where, where on Everest was it? Was it at the top or base camp or? 

Petra Williams: no, no, not at the top. No, no, I'm not that extreme. Like, that's just crazy shit. Like, who does that shit, right? No, um, I went to a place called Gokyo ri, which is just a little bit higher than base camp. So it was like 5, 400 meters up. And I chose not to do base camp because I'm a real non conformist. don't like doing things that are normal.

Um, and Aerospace Camp I also heard is really, really filthy. So, I just wasn't prepared to do that. So, uh, yeah, nah, nah. I went to Gokyo ri. Yup.

Nirish Shakya: Okay, [00:06:00] cool. I mean, that's, um, that itself must have been a pretty amazing experience, especially, you know, leading someone who's visually impaired, you know, up the mountain. Um, I mean, and I come from Nepal, as you know, like I was born in Nepal. So, um, the, the mountains always, you know, hold a special place in my heart.

And yeah, for, for a long time, I did, you know, see, you know, Well, I was kind of hoping to climb one of the mountains, um, sometime, but I've never actually done it. But having said that, I did, um, propose to my wife, who's, who's Australian, um, on top of a hill in Nepal, uh, overlooking all the mountain ranges. So yeah, you know, that's one of the bucket list items ticked off. Um,

Petra Williams: awesome. Congratulations. Ha ha ha ha ha

Nirish Shakya: thank you. 

Petra Williams: ha. Ha 

Nirish Shakya: Um, 

Petra Williams: ha ha. 

Nirish Shakya: so what would happen next in that movie? Bored. The next thing people would see.

Petra Williams: Oh, what would the next thing be? Oh my god, it's so exciting. 

The Journey to Life Coaching

Petra Williams: Um, look, really what [00:07:00] I'm working on now, um, Uh, cause I have my own life coaching practice and I've had it for 80 years now, 8 to 10 years, depends date you want to refer to. um, you know, have found in my own life in my clients lives that there's so much inspiration out there there's so much information and most of us can spew that shit out of our asses, right?

Like I swear we can all be gurus because we all know the stuff, right? And yet so few of us, and I include myself in this because I, I've experienced this myself, aren't actually living the life that we want. Right? We still stuck in the, in our own ruts, right? And so my mission now is to move people from inspiration to implementation.

From Inspiration to Implementation

Petra Williams: And what I have found the Rish in the personal [00:08:00] development self help spiritual space is that there is so much bullshit, like, fuck, there's so much bullshit out there that we, we want to, um, often, uh, lift, uh, we often measure ourselves by, um, what am I going to say, we, we set ourselves these, these standards that we hear on podcasts YouTube videos and self help books, but those things aren't necessarily right for us.

then when we don't reach these insurmountable mountains in our own lives, we think there's something wrong with us. And then we land up feeling so bad about ourselves, and there's such self loathing and hatred that comes with that. Um. Um. Um. And, and then we just, and that just turns into a vicious cycle.

And I don't want people to feel that. It's, you know, and I, and so my mission now is really to help people move from that inspiration to implementation stage. And that's where it's at. And the way I'm doing that [00:09:00] is through a program that I've created, but also through retreats and just by, by actually calling the BS.

Because I think we have to remember, I don't think, we have to remember that the personal development space in the U. S. alone is worth 1. 8 trillion dollars. 1. That's a lot of money. dollars, right? That means that there's a real commercial angle to it, right? And so much of stuff is online now. No problem, just fork out the 7, 000 and we'll help you.

And then it doesn't work, right? And it irks me. And so that's, that's the next movie. think the next Hmm. in the movie.

Nirish Shakya: So, um, how did you get, get into coaching in the first place?

Petra Williams: Yeah, cool. Like, it's, it's an interesting story, right? been many stages in my life [00:10:00] where I've gone through. Crap. What's next? So what I've learned about myself, I didn't know this before coaching, but I was in the state, I was living in New Zealand. I'll never forget this. I was living in New Zealand at the time.

And I was in a marketing job, right, for a not for profit. And I had sort of plateaued. I was so miserable. Because I wasn't enjoying the work I was doing. Um, I felt stagnated, but I didn't know the way forward. And that for me is the worst. Like, you know, that indecision, um, yeah, it's just that misery.

And in my misery, I sort of reached out to someone and she said, Hey, how about you do a Myers Briggs And I'd never heard of Myers Briggs at the time. I'm not sure if you've heard, have you heard of Myers Briggs, Yes, I have. Yes. like a profile thing, right? And I [00:11:00] remember doing the profile and the guy running it through it with me, and he said to me, you've got exceptional leadership qualities, you are a leader, a life coach, the profession of a life coach would really work for you.

And this was before life coaching was a thing, Hmm. And At the time, I tell you, I was in such misery, I was in such a deep hole, um, I couldn't take that on. I couldn't take that on. I could, I was like, how could I possibly be a leader and guide people? Um, and, and so that, that sort of, that just sat. And then it must have been about five years later, was again in this, like, this is a cycle of my life, right?

I, I, I just, um, I get to the, I do something and then I get to the stage where I go, whoa, what's next, right? I was at the stage of like, okay, I've done this now, what's [00:12:00] next? And this ad for life coaching came on Facebook, I was like, Oh, this looks interesting. And so I, yeah, so I did my diploma in life coaching and neurolinguistic programming.

and that was, that just opened up my world, um, to my own pathening, to my own behavior. And from there, I first got my own coaching so I could sort myself out. Um, and because I saw the great impact it had on my own life, then finally was able to step into the coaching space and then open my own practice from that Hmm. So when you say impact, can you talk us through that impact? Like what were you, how were you like before? Um, this transformation and, um, how did you go about, um, taking yourself through this transformation?

Yeah, cool. Like, great question, right? as I described before, I would at a [00:13:00] hundred miles an hour and then I would hit a wall. And then I would crumble. That was my pattern, right? It was not pretty. I can tell you, it's not pretty. Like, I'm high energy, but when I crash, I crash, right? Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. I, couldn't see what was motivating me.

I couldn't, I was often playing the victim. I often, I love the victim mode. Like, I hate the victim mode because I, I play it so often. I used to play it so often, right? And I still fall into it every now and then. I'm like, I'm not going to kid you, right? I'm not Moses, right? And, um, but then when I started doing the course, I started seeing.

My own behavior. Um, it's, it's interesting. Like I, I almost feel like I want to take it out of my chest, um, like [00:14:00]this ball into my hand and I'm looking at it in front of me. I realized that what was happening in my life is that I didn't trust myself to really go for what I wanted. I always wanted to be an entrepreneur.

I always wanted to have my own business. And so I didn't have the self worth or the confidence to do that. so I would take on jobs that I didn't enjoy and they didn't challenge me. And so I would land up in the spiral. And so that was all linked to childhood trauma stuff, as it often is. You know, I always say if you don't need therapy from your childhood, your parents did not do a good job.

And, um, and then from seeing that and exploring that and dealing with that, Over years guys, I'm not, I don't want to fucking joke you here. Like it's not like I didn't have an aha moment when I was like, Oh my God, the angels [00:15:00]came out of heavens. And all of a sudden I was healed. I was cured. It wasn't like that.

It took years of working through my stuff, um, to then eventually find out the information I needed and then take the steps to then open the practice. Um, and then, you know, there was a process. Um, and it is a lifelong process. It doesn't stop because as we grow, as we do different things, we morph and grow and then new challenges come up, right?

So, and that's sort of how that happened for me.

Nirish Shakya: So, if you could give advice to that self before this journey, what is, what is the advice you could give that person? You know, you're running a hundred miles an hour, you're crashing and burning.

Petra Williams: Um, what advice would I give that person? It's interesting, isn't it? [00:16:00] My, my advice would be, listen. Listen to yourself, listen, listen to the inner calling, and trust that inner calling, like listen. Hmm. you know, Naresha, I don't know if you felt the same, but I, and I, I mean, from your talk, you expressed that you felt while you were, you know, having all these successes and achieving all these things, but innately and inwardly, you knew something was up.

And so often we have that voice, don't we? We have that, maybe it's not a voice, maybe it's a feeling, or whatever, but we have that knowing. And I don't know if you, in New Zealand you get sand flies. I'm not sure if you guys know what sand flies are, but they are like, do you know what sand flies are? Naresh, you know what a I do. Yeah. But please do tell us. 

yeah but it's this tiny, like it's minuscule, like it's the size of the, [00:17:00] the, the needle head, right? They're minuscule, but they are bastards, like when they get you, they get you, and they're fucking swarms, it's one, there's like a thousand of them, right? And that stuff itches for days, right?

And that's where they inference that gnawing it, Right? Like it's this constant feeling that, there's, you know, there's something not, there's something up. And so often we don't, we don't want to face that. Like I didn't want to face that because that actually meant I had to stop and take a look at my actions and my response and take responsibility for my life.

And the, because, you know, the, our lives are the product of our choices. Right? so for me, to stop and actually say, Petra, the life you're living is because of the choices you're making and the choices you are [00:18:00] making. And that took me some courage. So the thing I would say to myself is listen to that voice and listen to it without judgment and then follow it, follow it.

And, and, and that's what I'd say to myself.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah. I've, I've, I've heard, you know, arguments on, on both sides of the coin where, you know, there's this school of thought where, You are 100 percent responsible for your life, and the way you are are, you know, has been determined by the choices you've made in the past. And then there's another school of thought, you know, which kind of talks about, No, you're not 100 percent responsible for your life.

You know, you, you have been shaped by your environment. You've been conditioned by school society. Uh, you were born into a certain level of privilege, which in it pretty much dictates like what opportunities that, you know, that become available to you. Um, and you know, Sam Harris, um, the psychologist and [00:19:00] the spiritual teacher goes to saying that, you know, free will itself is an illusion where we don't have free will because every decision we make has been, again, Conditioned for us to make, where, where do you stand in this different, in this spectrum?

Petra Williams: I love this Reh because I, I just wanna share with the audience. Like when Reh and I had a, a conversation before the podcast. He was, he was testing me out guys for you, , to make sure I was a worthy guest

Nirish Shakya: just doing my job, 

Petra Williams: and I'm glad I was selected. I'm one of the chosen ones. and I said to him, man. because he kept challenging me on stuff, and I was like, let's do this, like, let's challenge this, because I really want to nut some shit out, because, you know, as I said, the personal development space is full of bullshit.

Okay? The one thing I do want to say is, I, um, this is how I see things, okay. So, [00:20:00] you cannot, and you've heard this a thousand times, but I really want to nut this out. cannot control what happens in life, but you can control how you respond to it. So this is really and your response is a percent influenced by your past experiences by your past influences.

Yes. Okay, so where the responsibility comes from. So let me break up the word responsibility. How I break that up for myself and my clients is your ability to respond. Okay. Your ability to respond to your responsibilities, your ability to respond. so the work is in freeing yourself from your past influences so that you are able to respond in a way that you want to respond.[00:21:00]

But let me break this down a little bit because it's like fucking up there. And okay. So what I, what do I mean by freeing yourself? So, there's a difference between responding and reacting, right? 

Understanding Triggers and Responses

Petra Williams: What do you think the difference between responding and reacting is, Naresh?

Nirish Shakya: I would say, um, responding comes from a space of awareness. It comes from this mindset of, um, proactivity rather than reactivity. Uh, whereas obviously the word react is you are reacting to a stimulus where you may, maybe you might, or might not have agency over that reaction.

Petra Williams: Exactly, right? So, that's the

Nirish Shakya: Was that the correct answer?

Petra Williams: There is no correct, there is no right or wrong, it's your

Nirish Shakya: Were you, were you testing me this time?

Petra Williams: The Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha But that's exactly right. So, so when I say you're responsible for your life, what I'm saying there is [00:22:00] you're able to respond. And in order for you to be able to respond, you need to be able to your triggers, right?

You need to be able to notice your, your patterning and how you respond. For example, you This is a pathetic example, but I think it really drives it. Okay, so I really want to make this real. husband just shoves shit in the dishwasher. Like, just shoves it

Nirish Shakya: Isn't that what you're meant to do? 

Petra Williams: Yes, maybe. I'm all about efficiency, right?

Like, I'm like, you have to pack, the cups go on the left hand side, this goes on the right hand side. Like, yeah, I know how to pack it so I can get the most in there. And what he also does, he just stacks it on top of each other so the dishwasher doesn't wash it, because it's not even. And when I open the dishwasher, I see his, his way of doing it, I can literally feel my blood [00:23:00] boiling, like it is super weird, like it's so, I feel so triggered by that.

Okay. And so my normal reaction would be to turn around and have something very verbal to say about that, right? and after 70 years of marriage, you'd think I could let that shit go, right? But, So in that example though, what I've learned is, I open the dishwasher and I see that. And I go, okay, like, this is not the wrong way of packing the dishwasher, it's just a different way.

Okay, so let me pack it the way I want to pack it. And I breathe through the feeling I call anger. And then I close the dishwasher. So I'm going to put the little bag and turn it on. And I just walk away and I don't say anything. And that's what I mean between the difference of responding and your reaction right.

So when I say you are responsible. It's just how you respond [00:24:00] your life and what happens to life. So I don't know what this dude's definition of that is, but it really is about looking at how you got triggered. why you're triggered and choosing different behavior to that. 

Nirish Shakya: So, besides, um, your husband shoving things in the dishwasher, what, what, what triggers you

in life?

Petra Williams: stupid people trigger me, stupid people, bad drivers, uh, you know, I, it's interesting this, this journey for me what I'm most triggered by is my own complacency. know, sometimes what I'm most triggered by is my own lack of action and my own fear response and I can be my own worst enemy.

so good at [00:25:00] being my own worst enemy. And so, um, the one thing that I really, the reason I really started this program is, you know, is like I spent 10 years of my life Right? Hiding in plain sight. And I really want to share this because I think this happens to a lot of us. Um, you know, on the surface, it looked like I had it all together.

You know, this personal brand, my personal brand was one of amazingness and awesomeness and energy. Okay. And when you meet me, I'm outspoken and I'm like high energy, really I wasn't living the life I wanted to live. Like I was running this life coaching practice. it was okay. Sometimes it wasn't.

When it wasn't my husband there [00:26:00] financially supported me. Which was a real problem for me because that was not fair on him. Um, I wanted to, for many years, be speaking on stages around the world would help other people achieve that, but wasn't doing it myself. And so what was happening is I, not only was I helping people achieve their dreams as a coach, but I was just not making it happen for myself.

Of right. And then my will became very small and I became so shameful. I was ashamed that and I was, and because I was ashamed, I didn't ask for help, right? Because, you know, I've got my shit together, like my identities and I've got my shit together. Look at all the school shit stuff I've done. And so I didn't ask for help and I just, again, I spiraled, this is the, the, the story of my life.

And eventually I looked at my life and I was like, [00:27:00] holy hell, marriage is shit. My finances are shit. I feel like, I feel like death. It was like my life force was, was, was diminishing. Like, I honestly, I don't know what death feels like, but I think that's what, that's what it was for me. Right. I thought, God, I have to do something about this.

And so then I hired an expensive coach I was just like, that's not working. And I signed up for another program and that's not working. And that's when I realized what I always need to be true is like, I really just need someone to help me plan. plan, sit and hold my hand. I need someone to support me in that.

Because I don't do, I don't, hearing my own language, I don't do structural. I'm an ideas person, I get excited by the idea, and then I'm a [00:28:00] gonna person. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, because I'm excited by the idea. And I wasn't implementing and so yeah, and so I did, I hired someone to help me implement and that changed my life, you know, it changed my life.

I didn't need any more mindset work. I didn't need any more healing or inspiration. What I needed was someone to give me clarity, help make a clarity and then plan. And so what triggers me the most is my own, Is, is, is my own, um, I turn in on myself, that really fucks me off, because I'm like, you know, that's not helpful.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah, yeah. And when it comes to like, you know, shooting into yourself, um, there, there is, you know, such a wealth of, um, information in there if you were to kind of, you know, if we were to look inside. 

The Inner Illumination Model

Nirish Shakya: And, uh, one of the, the materials that you sent me in one [00:29:00] of the early emails, um, that really intrigued me was, uh, what you called, uh, the inner illumination model.

Right? And, and you, and I remember you mentioned that, like, you know, you know, people. tell us to be ourselves, but what does that even mean? And I liked how you kind of painted that picture of like the four layers of, um, the self that, um, we, we tend to have. Could you talk us through those, uh, to that model?

Petra Williams: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, let me just give you a little background on the model. So going through this, it's all about, you know, be your authentic self. Show up in your authentic self. Like there's this word authenticity, it's such a buzzword, right? what does that even mean? You know, and how do I know who I am?

Like, and how can I show up as my authentic self when I have so little? much, so many voices and, and [00:30:00] things telling me who I need to be. And I was finding that and how, how do I know who I am and then how do I know how to show up as that person? So I already sat down and looked at it and I discovered the inner illumination model, it starts from the outside in.

And the outside. The first one is perception. And sometimes when we don't know who we're being. Who are we showing up as it's really useful to that this can be shit scary Because actually need to go out there and ask How do I show up in our meetings with you? Right? So nourish I'm going I'm going to demonstrate with you.

Hi nourish

Nirish Shakya: Hello.

Petra Williams: is the third time we've interacted And in the three times we've interacted together What is your, what is your opinion [00:31:00] of me? How, how have I showed up for you?

Nirish Shakya: Well, the first thing that I sense is definitely your energy. You seem to be a very high energy person. Um, there's definitely, you know, I see a lot of kindness in terms of wanting to do your bit to help people. Um, and, um, yeah, you seem extroverted. Um, you know, you seem like you're a people person. You like to talk and you basically like to put yourself out there.

Petra Williams: Great. Thanks for sharing. And this is sort of what we do, right? We do that, um, We do, that's what I encourage you to do, to go out to different people to, and ask them. you start off with warm leads. Do not ask family. Ha ha! Do is that? I don't know. ask family. Well, you know what? They are the ones who will, they will trigger.

Okay, so, I always think, you know, um, I also don't, I don't think [00:32:00] necessarily, I don't think necessarily family have, cannot, um, answer honestly, right? Because there's such history there, right? My recommendation is not to ask family, um, unless you have a particularly close relationship with your family, right?

So when you, when you ask clients, I show like an email, you can say, Hey, you know, I'm really working at showing up in the best version of myself when I interact with you. Could you please tell me your, your, um, thoughts on how, of your dealings with me? And just getting that response. So most people will not tell you something that you don't want to hear, because people don't want to hurt your feelings, right?

you know, friends and say, hey, could you please be honest? And when I did this with my friends, they were like, you know, you're high energy, you're so much fun to be around, you're very insightful and introspective, but [00:33:00] don't finish stuff. And you, um, you don't delegate very well. And you, you're fiercely independent and you don't let us in.

Right? You like, you have this wall. And, and so getting that response is really important. The, the, the here is not to spiral. Because if someone says something and it whacks you, the trick is not to spiral. You're not doing, you know, there's 8 billion people in this world. You go, if you ask 8 billion people, each person will have their own opinion of you, right?

But your purpose, the purpose of this is only to start at trends. how you're showing up. Okay. And, and to see your shadow side, because I don't know about you, but I don't like looking at that side. I don't like about myself. So [00:34:00] it's a really nice activity to go through. it takes courage, but it also takes, it's worth it.

It really is worth it. if you can ask that person you don't get on with, Well, if you don't get on with someone, and you ask them, they are honest, then you'll get a very good feedback. You'll get good feedback from them. Yeah, I guess that's the,

Nirish Shakya: who would I ask?

Petra Williams: Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: Um, let's see. Um,

Petra Williams: Like, who's the person you don't get on with, and you would ask?

Nirish Shakya: Well, right now I don't have a person I don't get along with very well, but yeah, I've had colleagues in the past that, you know, we haven't really, you know, seen eye to eye. Um, but yeah, yeah, I can think of a few names, a few faces I can definitely, you know, ask.

Petra Williams: So when I want to say that, and I'm only suggesting, I don't know this to be true for you. [00:35:00] If you are in a circle with everyone who agrees with you, you need to expand your circle. Right? Don't hang out with the yes people. Right? Because otherwise, um, yeah, you're too comfortable. too comfortable.

Right? yeah, so that's the first step I do. And once you get the feedback, as I said, then you have the second level's persona. Thanks And the persona is how you want to show up in the world. So you look at the feedback, you look at the trends, and you go, okay, great, I'm really enjoying how I'm showing up here, these are the things I don't like about how I'm showing up, so how am I going to change that?

Okay? So an example for me is like, um, as you articulate that I'm really high energy, I'm really full of life, you know? Um, and so I really enjoy that and, and that really is amazing, but one thing I, I really focus on is sometimes taking a back [00:36:00] seat and actually listening actually being present to listen and to learn and not to think I have all the answers, right?

I enjoy being fiercely independent and, um, there's also times when I do. Hearing other people's experience and learning from that is also really valuable, right? So it's, those are examples of, of how I, I will, I choose to show up in the world, So your personas, your personality, how you choose up.

And then that's the second layer. The third layer is truly, in my experience, The one that can really fuck you over and that's the one with your ego This is what you think of you And this can be hard right because [00:37:00] the ego will either Inflate you deflate you it's this constant yo yo, So Petra, is this like 

Nirish Shakya: a self, self perception?

So is ego pretty much, you know, self perception or is it something different?

Petra Williams: I would, the way I would articulate your ego is just that inner voice, that the inner voice of how you see yourself, right? Hmm. sometimes I look in the mirror and I'm like, babe, honestly, stop the press. You are hot. And I walk through life like, of course everyone wants to know me, right? And then sometimes I look in the mirror and I'm like, Jesus, girl, like, I don't know, man, like, you look like dog's breakfast.

I, you know, and, and you know, the language I'm using here, Hmm. the language, this is how I speak to [00:38:00]myself. And we all have that inner voice, right? And when that inner voice really comes up, when, you know, when that inner voice really comes up, when you want to create change, that's when that ego comes in.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Hmm. going to make it. You're not good enough. Like, you know, that real mean, nasty bastard of a voice who comes in, right? Um, and so that ego, it's acknowledging that it exists. It's acknowledging the voices and they're not, not adhering or responding to either. Hmm. responding to you're great or you're awful, 

So why does the ego exist? What's,

what's the purpose of ego?

Petra Williams: We need an ego to exist in society, right? We need an ego, so an ego is based on that past, [00:39:00]right? So we need the ego to, to keep us in check. to keep us in check with society. If we didn't have an ego and everyone did whatever they bloody well wanted, you know, we'd have people frolicking.

They could, no one wants to see your naked ass, put some clothes on, right? But the ego is really just to help us fit into a society and, and, and to belong. It gives us, it keeps us safe, right? It keeps us safe. Um, The trick is sometimes we need to take a risk, right? Sometimes we need to step out of that safety zone.

the ego is formed in our formative years between 0 and 7, okay? And what we thought keeps us safe in that age is not relevant to today's, to our adult self. So it's really about examining that ego. The best way I have found that, I mean, I've done a [00:40:00] lot of work on myself. I mean, like 12 years, but the greatest way I've really found one is forgiveness.

Honestly, like, um, you know, I'm so hard on myself. just to forgive myself. Right. And the way I've really done that is by just going, Hey. It is what it is, and you're okay. It is what it is, and you're okay. Um, and I also started writing poetry. I do a lot of meditation. I started a meditation practice. I spent, um, two, two months in India, traveling through India solo and in Madhyanashram, and really cemented my spiritual practice, which includes meditation, one of them, and yoga.

And in that meditation practice, I'm able to sit [00:41:00] for 20 plus minutes without moving or responding while my head goes crazy,

Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

Petra Williams: while the ego goes crazy. And that is good practice for me. And it has really helped me between The reality of where I'm at what the ego is telling me. Is Hmm. sense?

And Yep. Yep. 

too 

Nirish Shakya: So, um, In your meditation when you sit down to meditate you said your head goes crazy. Um, I want to I want to kind of maybe Give you know whoever's listening right now kind of like a bit of a picture of that so that You know when they try a meditation for themselves, maybe they're a first time meditator uh, so they can kind of um Um know what to expect because I know a lot of people they try meditation And you know, they get you know distracted by all these thoughts and they're like ah [00:42:00] meditation is not for me and they just give up um Yeah, what does that, you know, the craziness feel like and look like for you?

Petra Williams: Oh, for me? Oh, great question. And um, I love that we're having this discussion because again, when something becomes mainstream, it just gets fucked up. So, um, I love that Well, how I like to because I'm a visual person, right? So how I like to inference it is like your thoughts are like leaves in your brain in your head, right?

And if your brains anything like mine. We all have different brains, but mine is like a whirlwind of leaves. It's a hurricane of leaves and it's spinning like crazy shit. And it's not one hurricane. It's like 60 hurricanes in there. Right. Yep, I'm the same [00:43:00] yeah. like my head's going to be explode, explode. Right. And the thing with meditation is. Is like they say you have to stop thinking, but it's not possible, right? Your brain is designed to think. you know, you don't say to your heart, stop beating. I'm not, I'm meditating. So stop beating.

You don't say to your digestive system, Hey, I'm meditating, so stop like digesting, right? So it's acknowledging that the thoughts are there, but it's not reacting to them. So generally when a thought comes up, we do something, right? Like if a thought comes up that I don't like, I generally will distract myself by stuffing something in my mouth, right?

I have done emotional eating. In the past and I've sort of curbed that habit, but that was really a habit of mine, right? So it's just about sitting there and just letting the thoughts go mental not doing anything and that is the first step, right? And please do not [00:44:00] start off with 20 minutes, start off with two minutes Right?

Two minutes. If you can sit for two minutes with that craziness in your head and not doing anything, you've already achieved something, right? And then you go to three minutes, and you go to four minutes. Right? And you don't have to sit a particular way, I mean it's advised that you sit up straight with your back, you know, not leaning against anything, but don't get caught up in all of that shit.

Right? You don't have to sit crossed legs, man. My crossed leg is hard work, like it cramps my legs, man. Right? 

Starting Meditation: Simple Steps

Petra Williams: But it's just about sitting. It's just sitting still. Just sit still. For two minutes. then you grab for, you know, for three minutes. And in fact, my friend, you know, Jason, he runs a charity called Meditation HQ.

they literally, they have just this month started, um, the one million meditation [00:45:00] month of May. It's to encourage people to meditate and they do these, and then they've recorded all these amazing guided meditations. And I recommend like, if you want to start meditating, start with guided meditation.

Because that's usually the easiest way, like it's teach you your breathing, teach you how to scan your body, so to get out of your head and into your body. And so that's a really great way to start, like, you know, look up Meditation HQ or anything, any meditation app, and start slowly, um, just give yourself some space.

Understanding the Ego in Meditation

Nirish Shakya: yeah, yeah, I love that, um, you know, even in my own meditation practice Um meditation those sessions definitely give me an opportunity. There's a space to just Like I said observe my own ego And, uh, you know, and the thoughts that kind of, you know, just like spits out. Every moment and a lot of times we're not aware of these thoughts because they [00:46:00] just happen so You know so much in the background, but they dictate so much of uh of how we feel In every, you know in any given moment Um, like, you know, for example, let's say just like last week, you know, for example I was waiting for a response from from someone and and they didn't reply for for a few days And my ego was telling me, Hey, that's because that the person doesn't like you.

Maybe you're not good enough, you know, you should be ashamed. And all these like automatic kind of, you know, responses that the brain tends to generate to make you, I mean, alerts of possible danger, which might or might not be the case, but just being aware of that ego kind of raising its head and alerting you of these different signals. I find that it gives me a lot of, you know, a sense of peace rather than, you know, reacting to this blindly and instinctively saying, Yes, I'm not good enough. There's something that I did wrong.

Petra Williams: Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting, isn't it? 

The Impact of Distractions and Dopamine

Petra Williams: Like, we do [00:47:00] live in a world of distraction, guys. Like, I, like, I did a short film called Look Up. And I literally went from my house in Sydney, walked to the bus stop, got on the bus, got off Sydney City, and then walked through Sydney City and here in Australia.

I was filming on my GoPro, and everyone was on their phones. was on their phone and then the video ended with my husband running me over with a car. not literally, real. and I I know. Okay. obviously I'm still here, but when we did it, I said to him, he's like, floor it, like I'll jump out the way and he refused to, he's like, I don't want to kill you.

I'm like, anyway. so very rarely do we give our brains, time to rest. And you know what happens with phones? This is quite serious, right? So [00:48:00] phones give us dopamine. Dopamine is a happy drug, right? A happy chemical. happens with our brain is because we constantly stimulate it, our dopamine levels are so high that we can no longer just experience pleasure in the simple thing.

Right. We literally have to now jump out of an airplane experience any pleasure. Right. And so we become emotionally dead. Like we, we like, we can't find pleasure in stuff. Right. so then there's any, any surprise that depression, anxiety, and all, all those syndrome, uh, symptoms, syndromes, whatever, are on the rise.

And so, and we constantly stimulate it and then we can't sleep and then, and distracted. And so what meditation does, it just gives your brain a break and just gives it a break. Right. if you, and I, [00:49:00] I would imagine if you're listening to this podcast and if you're on the human design space, you are an ideas person and you are a creator and your brain is working There is a real sense for me, it's certainly, just like, because your brain is your biggest organ and it takes the most energy, right?

And sometimes I just get fucking exhausted because of my brain, like because of my brain, right? so that's what meditation does for me. 

Finding Your Form of Meditation

Petra Williams: But, and, but, and, I also exercise, like I need to exercise. Like, I need to, so again, like, we're so used to sitting. I'm not moving our bodies like I need to move. I salsa dance three times a week.

I know social salsa dancing. I went to Cuba last year to learn salsa in Cuba. And so I love salsa dancing in my gym. I, you know, when I joined the gym at the beginning of the year, [00:50:00] I'm like, fuck you. Like I would not have been called dead in a gym, but I was like, you know what? Time to make some changes, right?

So I changed. So find your method, your form of meditation. You don't necessarily have to. Sit, do encourage you to give it a go. Um, you can find your form of meditation, whether that's running or exercising or whatever that is for you, right? There's not one size fits all

Nirish Shakya: Yeah, I love that. 

Managing the Ego: Befriending It

Nirish Shakya: Uh, I mean, you know, we could probably have an entire episode just on the topic of ego, but I'm, I'm loving all these different techniques that we can use. Um, not to defeat the ego, but maybe manage it, you know, maybe like befriend it because we, we probably won't be able to defeat the ego because it's such an integral part of how we are built as, as humans, but we can definitely, you know, be there as a friend saying, Hey, it's okay.

You're safe. You don't need to, you know, um, chase every thought that comes to your [00:51:00] head.

Petra Williams: That that's, that's a nice way, like that's it, like choosing how to respond, right? Be free of that in the final stage of the na illumination model. Which I almost forgot about because I got so excited talking about everything else. And thank you for bringing us back. 

Returning to Your Core Self

Petra Williams: Um, that is when you come back to your core self.

Now the core self in my experience and what I've seen all around me that beautiful space of love and light. Like, is really who we are. And I always inference it now. I don't want to be wanky about this because this often happens. But you know, when I look at a young child, a toddler, you know, and they are just Beaming like they are.

[00:52:00] The eyes are bright and they just beaming. I've never seen. I mean a toddler go. I mean, I don't like my toe, right? But just like they say just and you know, when a baby laughs and we just laugh. I mean, that's just what it is, right? And that in essence is who we are. Really an essence. And so when we have transcended the perception of what we think people think of us and have freed ourselves from that when we have freed ourselves from our personality of how we think we need to show up in the world when we freed ourselves from the ego who tells us we are the great and not great.

Well, we've really freed ourselves from all of that and it is possible. once again, I do want to reiterate, it's not a one time thing. This is a lifelong process, guys. Please don't, like, I think this is where we screw [00:53:00] ourselves over. We think we get it and we have it. I wish, I wish, right? Wouldn't that be, well, it wouldn't be amazing because that means we're not growing, right?

But then once we've freed ourselves from all of that and we can just let that go, what's there is the purest form, it's our love and our light. And we can come from that space, when we can come from the space of worthiness, when we can come from the space of deserving, not because we've done anything, not because we've said anything, because we are, is a beautiful space to be in.

And I can't describe it for you because there are no words to describe that, that beingness, but it is a beingness. And there are a few people out there, we sometimes call them [00:54:00] larger than life, right? We call them exuberant, Those are the people who come from that place of love and light. when we come from that place of love and light, we love everyone and everything.

Because that's who we are. And it's not romantic love. not sexual love. I know, I say this, but you know, sometimes people think some weird shit, right? It's just knowing that you are worthy and worthy coming from that place. And it's just a beautiful, beautiful place.

Nirish Shakya: I guess, yeah, it'd be the love for the experience of the existence just as it is. Rather than, you know, wanting it to be something different.

Petra Williams: Yes. And that's exactly what it is. The ration in my, that word that keeps coming up for me [00:55:00] in all these practices acceptance. Like when you can truly be in the moment truly accept it for what it is, because the ego will tell you, Oh, it shouldn't be like this. You know, like, Oh, there shouldn't be a war and there shouldn't be this.

But if you can really sit in the essence of knowing that everything's exactly as it's meant to be, and really sit in that and know that as, and knowing. as a thinking, as a knowing. is a beautiful space to be in. And to then to come from that space and live from that space and know that no matter what happens you're always okay, is a real spiritual journey that, that not many people choose to undertake because is certainly, you know, One where you have to let go of a lot stuff.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. thing you really have to let go of there is your identity. [00:56:00] Hmm. who you are being in the world. And your brain will fight to the death to protect its identity. Hmm. X. And that's um, yeah, interesting one.

Yeah. 

Identity and Its Challenges

Nirish Shakya: And that also again is a lifelong journey because we, you know, we hold such strong identities based on our, you know, professions or our roles in a family or in a society that we, it is very difficult to First of all, be aware of them because, you know, they're so integrated into our way of being and thinking.

But also, if there's an identity that is not serving us anymore, letting go of that identity and seeking something new can also be challenging. And the reason I'm saying this is because, you know, even In the world of, you know, design and tech and product, there are so many people currently battling those identities, especially, you know, a lot of people who have been [00:57:00] made redundant, for example, or a lot of people are currently, you know, looking for roles and finding it difficult to, you know, find a role.

It's not as easy nowadays because of, you know, whatever the reason might be like an economic or, you know, or, or more. Um, so for people who might be in that position right now, um, that kind of that uncertain, that's uncertainty, um, and that their, their own kind of expectations of, you know, who they are and where they should be in life, um, How can they maybe like, you know, use this model to get, well, first of all, a better understanding of themselves and then, you know, take those, um, proactive steps to respond rather than react so that they can progress into the next step in their life.

Petra Williams: Yeah, great question. And, um, yeah, I, [00:58:00] I remember when my husband was made redundant his identity was so tied up to his, his executive role. And I sort of, you know, I got them a coach. Because you don't coach, you don't coach your partners ever. It lands a divorce for sure. I don't know if you've tried it, the regimen.

If you have, if you haven't, don't do that. Um, the first thing I, I would say is get some help with this. Okay? either through a co coach or a counselor. And the reason I say this is because sometimes when we're in that, in that place where we are feeling a lot of strong emotion around something we can't think clearly, like our neuro frontal cortex, which is our fabulous human brain in the front and a new development, it really does shut down and we need someone to help us out of that.

So get someone to help you. In Australia, there are so many amazing services. You know, [00:59:00] I'm not sure about the UK and the rest, you can, can speak to that, right? But there's a lot of services here. And then really start looking at Your relationship to your role, like your relationship to your, to who you think you are.

the greatest challenge my husband had I'm like, you've got so many transferable skills, right? You can train you've got so many skills you can transfer, but he couldn't see it. He was like, no, no, I'm, I'm this person and this is what I like. I'm a designer and this is what I do. And I, you know, I can't do anything else.

And no, no, no, no. Like And so like really changing their view of what's possible for yourself and exploring it for yourself is a really essential piece. I know that, I don't know, I'm sorry, I don't know you from Barbzomb. I imagine that's often challenging to do that, especially when you're in a panic state of, Oh my God, I need to get a job.

Why am I not getting a job? And then it just [01:00:00] becomes perpetual cycle, doesn't it? Like, I'm not, I mean, it's panic. And so, and this is really when you do need to do it is when you need to go and find someone and say, is that identity I have attached to this job? And is that serving me? And then you go.

And once you've looked at that, then you go, well, what's, what's the next possible steps available to me? Because what often happens is, when we're in a dark place, we don't see possibilities. Right. We get tunnel vision and we don't see possibility. So then I, again, I would recommend getting a career coach.

Okay. I just recommend getting help guys, like really, and you're like, why would I invest in this? Like, well, I don't have the money, I don't have the cash. Find the money to invest in that, right? There's lots of, again, in Australia, there's lots of free services, but sit down with that person and go. Okay, well, what are the possibilities?

What's next? Where can I go next? And what do I need to do? So once again, it's that [01:01:00] implementation stage of what's the next step. Do not backtrack Don't look too far into the future. Don't future pace too far because that will fuck us over, right? We get overwhelmed. Like, oh my god, we're going to die. I don't have a job.

I don't have an income. We die. You're like, no.

Nirish Shakya: Death is the

ultimate fear. step? Yeah, the ultimate fear is death, right? the next step? And do that step. And then what's the next step? And then do that step. It is really about step by step by step by step, baby steps, right? But that's what I would recommend there is mind, the, the ego will tell you like it will play havoc with you.

Petra Williams: I would like to say you meditate. I, I, okay. So, um, I'm going to be [01:02:00] talking about the transcript. So, um, I'm going to be talking about the transcript. you to be able to change the way you act. it can also reverse, right? So it can also go, okay, well, I'm acting differently. So then I'm proving to myself that something different is possible.

So they do yo yo hand in hand, right? Because there's no point sitting at home thinking differently and not acting differently nothing's gonna change. So sometimes it's a matter of proving to yourself that something different is possible. But my greatest thing is get help. And if, again, I do not recommend family.

But it's. You do have someone like a friend or a colleague who you trust, go and talk to them as well, right? not [01:03:00]let your fear of humiliation stop you. 

Fear of Humiliation vs. Fear of Rejection

Petra Williams: It's not fear of rejection, it's fear of humiliation.

Nirish Shakya: Tell me more. What did you mean by that? 

Petra Williams: Tell you what, I just discovered this recently. Okay. Because people keep saying, fear of rejection, fear of rejection.

And I, I said this to my coach, because of course I have a coach. I mean, I wouldn't preach the gospel if I didn't. But I think in today's, in today's world, where we have branding, you know, and we have to show ourselves as having our shit together, as I shared in my own story, it's not fear of rejection, because who's rejecting you?

Who's rejecting you? My coach says, who's rejecting you? who are you fearing? Who? And I, he said that to me, who's rejecting you? And I couldn't answer him. And then I thought to myself, it's not fear of rejection, it's fear of humiliation, because fear of humiliation is the death of the, is the death of the ego.

It's the death of my [01:04:00] identity, of who I'm presenting myself to be, and my God, that, the death of my identity, as we said, is our greatest fear. It's what our ego will fight tooth and nail for, right? So like, oh my God, you can't ask that person, because will that person think that you're not all that?

You don't have all your shit together. You're not all that special. You know, you're not like Naresh, the great guy with this awesome podcast. What do you mean? Right? Oh my God, what happens if they find out you're not all that? And, that's what the eagle will fight against. So I encourage you, instead of going, Oh, I'm fear of humiliation, go the fear of regret.

Because we regret things we haven't done. We never regret things, well not that we never, we really regret things that we've done. We regret things that we haven't done. So instead of going, oh my God, what happens if I'm [01:05:00]humiliated? Go, I regret not doing this? Like five years from now, three years from now, one year from now, will I regret not having taken the step?

And really ask yourself that question. And if the answer's yes, then take it. It takes courage and it takes balls, but get the support you need. Do not do it on your own. Do not do it on your own.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Yeah. A couple of

years ago. Um, uh, you absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And, and kind of, you know, reminds me of some of the work by Brene Brown around shame and how that can really debilitate us in terms of like, you know, what actions we do take. Uh, a couple of years ago, um, I was in a, this forest in the UK and I had this kind of profound moment where I was just like sitting by the lake.

watching the trees and the bushes around the lake, and it kind of took me back to my childhood and how I grew up with, you know, so much [01:06:00] fear of shame and humiliation, you know, that through school, teachers, And I realized that a lot, a lot of my life decisions and actions were driven by this, this avoidance of, you know, shame and humiliation.

And I was just like looking at the nature around me. I'm like, do these trees, these plants, the lake, do they ever feel shame? You know? And I was like, no, they just are. They just are. happy the way they are. They're just using the conditions around them to just grow or if they can't grow, just, just be there.

Um, and that made me question myself, like, you know, why am I so scared of shame? You know, because we are all part of nature. We're all part of the same universe. Um, but why does this affect us so much more? Hmm.

Petra Williams: want to acknowledge, and I, I never want to blame [01:07:00] society because, like, who's society? The one time I framed, single. And she was dating and she couldn't find someone she liked, whatever the situation was there. And she says, oh, society makes it so hard for us women, single women.

I'm like, hey, magic. Honestly. So this society, tell me where to find this society because this society's obviously really, really, like, you know, making your life very difficult. Show me where society is and I will fucking sort that out for you, right? And she goes, Oh, don't be like that, right? But I don't like to label, but our culture, how I define culture is people like us do things like this.

Okay, people like us do things like this. In our Western culture, we do live in a shaming culture. Even in Australia, we have something called tall poppy syndrome, right? Where we, someone stands up and then we, you know, inference is that people tear, we tear each other down, right? But we do live in a culture that [01:08:00] shames really.

Like we celebrate success. Look at all the posts you see about Elon Musk and all those other weirdos out there doing amazing things, right? But, you know, like the very, but the minute someone. Does something and it doesn't work. God, the media fucking rips into it. Like, you know, like, really, like, rips it, and all of us, now, look, I, I, I don't want to be talking out of term, out of term here, because I didn't see anything about this, but there was recently a a um, a stabbing in Bondi Beach here in Bondi Junction here in Australia.

This is a very rare occurrence by us here in Australia. This kind of shit doesn't happen. Some guy what the little bit I know went to be AWOL, stabbed a few people and killed them. And someone was falsely accused as far as I know, again fact check me on this one, but someone had posted a video or photo Saying this is who the person was.

This [01:09:00] is who the, the person like the, the stabber was, it was the wrong photo. of course they Wow. and you know, the power of socialism and online, this person threatened death threats, like that kind of stuff, right? And it turned out to be false. And so this is the world we are living in.

People don't fact check anymore. People don't go, people don't think for themselves and go, well, is that accurate? They just fucking go. And so we do live in a society that does go out with pitchforks, like no joking, pitchforks. It goes. So for us to openly go, Oh, that didn't work. And to openly, you know, express our shame, you know, is a very, very courageous act.

I just really [01:10:00] want to acknowledge that, right? Cause it's easy to say, yeah, the tree doesn't have shame and I acknowledge it. And I love trees. I love nature, but the tree doesn't have to live in my society, in my world. Okay. This is why I keep reiterating support. 

The Power of Support Systems

Petra Williams: We really must have support systems. And I say that because I didn't have support systems for the longest time because I sat in shame.

Yeah. And it's a very lone existence. And Brene Brown even talks about when we don't have a sense of belonging, there is always suffering, Hmm. But people who are most courageous have a support system, right? And so have that support system, whether it's friends, whether you hire a coach, whether you belong to a group, you must have someone in your corner because it's fucking hard.

It's hard being in the arena, as Brené Brown says. You get bloody and you get messy and you need someone to [01:11:00]fucking pull you out of there when you're almost like, close to death, okay? And you're like, you're not looking very pretty and you're not looking handsome, right? And you need someone to pretty you up and just like, put your clothes back on and do your makeup and then send you back out, right?

what I really want to say about that shame is acknowledge that it exists in society. Acknowledge that's, and that doing new things and failing is a big deal. It is a big deal, not doing it, the regret is a bigger deal, I always remember the story about a Russian guy. I'm sorry, I am carrying on a bit, but I do want to just really say this.

I don't remember the story, but I do remember the ending where he's on his deathbed and he says to his wife, happens? If my whole life was wrong, what would happen if my whole life was wrong? And I remember that so clearly [01:12:00]and I think I, I am never getting to my deathbed and having that thought. And many of us can because we are sleepwalking.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. So what were you ashamed of, let's say five years ago that you're not ashamed of anymore?

Petra Williams: I'm not ashamed of the shame. It sounds weird, right? I'm not ashamed of the shame, right? Because like, if you had asked me, not even five years ago, like, that's not a fucking joke. Like, if you had asked me about six months ago, maybe even, I would still be cowering. I'd still be like, my God, like I'm, now I can openly say, you know what?

I was really ashamed. I'm not ashamed. That behavior of actually, you know, having a social media profile and looked amazing, but then actually not living that for truth. That wasn't truth. Right? And I, and I, so like that was [01:13:00]really it. I had this perception and everything that I was rocking awesome, but that wasn't my truth.

Right? And now I can openly say that, that I was ashamed of that behavior. And I was ashamed to reach out was ashamed of the shame . And now I can openly speak to you about that. Hmm. asked me six months ago, I would not be having this conversation with

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah. I guess the, Yeah. that the ego finds its way to feel that shame and make you feel that shame. Um, and it gets, like you said, it's, it's a matter of, yeah. Embracing that nature of the ego rather than trying to fight it or trying to deny it.

Embracing Shame and Ego

Petra Williams: and as Renee Brown and I love her work on side fucking love, leverage shit is, um, shame sits in the darkness. We always think we're the only ones going through this, and this is why I'm actually openly talking about this now, is [01:14:00] because I know many of us are going through this. I know we are. Like, this is, you, I know you've experienced this, I've experienced this.

The more we can open up and make it acceptable and, and have, call it unconditional welcome. welcome. No matter what voice pops up in my head. I'm like, you're welcome to express yourself, but I do not need to listen to you. If they voice back, you're, you're welcome, but I do not need to listen to you.

So I will give you a voice, I will give you your time. Now your time's up, see you later. And that's not me, I'm not fighting their voice, I'm just like, you're welcome. Everyone's welcome, please let everyone be civil, because I've got a lot of voices in my head.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

Petra Williams: Everyone can. We'll get a turn to say what they need to say. I I will listen to all of you. [01:15:00] And that you've had your say. And now we're done. And that really and I said, and I do that at meditation And I listen to because you know why do you always have to remember ego always has a positive intention.

always has a, there's always a positive reason, like your ego's not there to fuck you up rather than spit you out. It's not, its intention's not to hurt you. Its intention is to keep you safe properly, right? So there's always a positive intention. So really, if you can look at that voice and go, the positive intention in that?

What's the positive intention for this? And is it serving me? And then you thank the voice. You go, thank you, man. I know that you really want to keep me safe here. And that worked for me in the past, but it's not necessary anymore. I'm now in the driver's seat. So I really thank you. So go to the Bahamas, have a cocktail, you know, it's on me.

See you later. Right. that's really how I talk to my voice.

Nirish Shakya: [01:16:00] Love that. I love, you know, all the corners that we've explored here in the last hour or so with this conversation. Um, I think, um, for me, the, the key takeaway has been again, in Creating that space to understand yourself and the different parts of yourself, you know, whether that be you know, the outer perception of yourself or whether that be the, the persona that you're trying to, you know, build for yourself or whether that be the ego telling you like, you know, what to think of yourself and maybe like the deeper level, which is your, you know, truer self and also Using that knowledge to take those like tiny steps.

Uh, and I think you mentioned those, you know, the value, the importance of tiny steps to move from implementation to, uh, sorry, um, inspiration to implementation. And that's something that, you know, personally, you know, I find it hard to do and i'm sure a lot of people find it hard to do because we're so caught up in these Stories in our head of you know What we [01:17:00] who we should be and who we should not be and what we should do and what we should not do That does not actually reflect the true reality of nature and just you know embracing that and reframing your Sense of identity can be really freeing And when you're on this journey, another thing that i've you know learned from my conversation is again the importance of having You know good Support networks because it can be a very dark and lonely place.

Yeah, a lot of these times Uh, especially when it comes to like, you know topics such as Shame and humiliation so having that support network Uh can be really beneficial because we're not the only ones in that space

Petra Williams: Yeah, absolutely. I, I just, I mean, I just want to finish off. 

The Journey Back to Self

Petra Williams: I, for me, the journey back to self is really what we're all here for. is, I believe, a nice human experience. that I don't want to call it. I mean, I suppose in that, in that way, [01:18:00] because I don't like calling things a journey because that suggests a destination.

And it suggests, I suppose the destination is death. Like we're all going to die. Okay. But I'd like to call it a process because it's ever, a process is ever evolving. Right. for me, our greatest process in life is our process back to self. And you will know when you are ready, you will know the voice.

The voice will tell you when it does, listen to the calling and seek out. And as they said, when the student's ready, the teacher will come. And I also just really want to share like, um, I doing, I've just recently, um, Publish an ebook with poetry and inspiration. My own poetry that has come through my own process of going through this and I really want the listeners to come and download that poetry book because honestly these words have come [01:19:00] through me from the divine source and they have the power to heal and I've seen people read this and the one thing I really with these poems, it's like the essence, the thread that keeps coming through is you are worthy.

You're worthy. Like this worthiness piece is so strong for many of us. So please like jump on the website and go and download that book. Cause honestly, I just want people to read those words and let them feel your, your inner self, your, your self of love and light, because that's who you really are.

Nirish Shakya: Awesome. We'll put a link in the show note and the in the description as well for your people to download your, um, your poetry book. Uh, yeah, it's some poetry, something that I've, you know, recently picked up through some poetry, um, uh, courses and I have fallen in love with it. Uh, I think it's such a, uh, a great way to get that access to your [01:20:00] inner self, to your subconscious and express that through words.

That is very difficult to do. Um, Just through like this normal mode of thinking through this kind of logical, you know boat of thinking So yeah, I would highly recommend if you are looking to you know, learn more by yourself to increase yourself on this Yeah, try it give give poetry a try Maybe if you especially haven't done it before it might you know, open up new doors and windows for you

so Hmm it's so ambiguous. It's so crazy, right? Like, I read it and I'm like, what the fuck is this about, right? So what I've done with my poetry book, because I've often read poetry and gone, what the hell? I've actually put an explanation in it, like, this is what I was going through, and this is the topic.

Petra Williams: You know, with my mum, I had a bit of a tumultuous relationship with mum, and so I was focusing on that. And then this poem came through me, and then, so I've sort of given, I've contextualized it, because I find often poetry's so abstract, [01:21:00] I don't know what's going on there, right? And then my brain won't let me enjoy it, because I'm constantly like, what's going on, what's going on, is this the right meaning?

that's, like, poetry's awesome, and for me, I've contextualized it so it actually makes sense.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I find that sometimes, you know, what comes out of the mind is not immediately, um, understandable for us, um, through that level of thinking that we currently have, but when you just like let it simmer and incubate, when you come back to it, let's say like after a week or two, maybe a month, then it, you know, kind of, you can looking at it through a different perspective and through a different lens, and it can actually help you understand your own words better. Um, so yeah. Yeah. That's why I don't know. I don't tend to kind of filter my words when I'm expressing myself through poetry. Just let it all come out because it doesn't have to make sense in that moment. You know, you might not never have to make sense, but you just kind of doing yourself and the universe a favor by just expressing yourself in whatever, you know, way it comes out.

Petra Williams: And you do, and you're doing us a favor by [01:22:00] expressing yourself, right? Because that is a gift to the world too, if you Absolutely.

Final Thoughts and Resources

Nirish Shakya: So any other, you know, resources or books that, that, that you recommend that's helped you a lot in your life or career?

Petra Williams: Yeah. Look, I mean, uh, were in, when you initially asked me this question, I did, um, write down a book, which I'm not gonna mention because I've changed my mind.

Nirish Shakya: Okay, that's fine.

Petra Williams: So . So the one book that really impacted me. um, Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. I'm not sure if it's a really good book, so Hmm. not I love that book. really I really recommend you read it.

I don't know if it's available on audio, but I really recommend you read it. And Viktor Frankl was a, is a psychiatrist, psychiatrist or psychologist? I can't remember. I don't know Yeah. One of those. Yeah. the two is. Yeah, and he was, uh, stuck in the Holocaust and in a concentration camp, and he He was reviewing how do [01:23:00] some people still manage after these horrible, horrible things happen to them?

How do they still keep going? And when those horrible, horrible things are over, how do they keep living? Because he said that some people died, like their soul died in those experiences. And so how do you still keep having the zest for life? And the one quote that really stuck with me, and I'll probably butcher this, but this is how I remember it in my mind.

He says, the choice is a spiritual freedom that cannot be taken away. It makes life meaningful and purposeful. And so what he really came to know was that we wake up every day and we make a choice. How do we respond to our lives and the circumstances of our life? And if someone can do it going through the fucking holocaust, while [01:24:00] being starved and beaten, can get up and still make a choice to live, then we can all do it.

And another thing you said is um, they really have to, you have to have a vision of the future. Like you have to be working towards something. So lots of people going through the holocaust, Um, it fully, like, I want to see my wife again, and I want to see my daughter again. And I don't know if, they didn't know if they were alive, but they had this, this thing that they held on to, the hope that gave them hope, and our vision, our vision needs to give us hope.

And so, it's just having something to work towards that hope, gives us hope, and then that drives the choice to carry on. So I highly recommend that book, I think it's such an easy read, and, and some really key takeaways there.

Nirish Shakya: Love it. Love it. It's definitely, you know, on my list of one of the most profound books I've read as well. So we'll put that link in the show notes as well. Um, so. Petra, we started off with the opening scene of your [01:25:00]movie, and now let's imagine that's the closing scene where, imagine that you are on your deathbed, and someone comes up to you with a tiny post it and a sharpie, and asks you to write your last few words for humanity.

What would you write on that tiny post it?

Petra Williams: Life is for living, life is for living, live it. And living is not screen guys, like live life, experience every morsel of it. It doesn't matter if it's asking someone out on a date or, you know, through the desert, like just live it. And carry that mace. Who's a modern mystic. I wish I could give one with answers.

I'm sorry to rush, but I just really love this quote. And it's on my phone and she says, and I want to read this to you and I'm going to leave you with this. It says, Always go with the choice that scares you the most because it is the one that [01:26:00] is going to require the most from you. you really want to look back on your life and see how wonderful it could have been?

If you have not been afraid to live it. And what I would say. Life is for living, live it. And those are my profound words.

Nirish Shakya: I love those words and I love how you kind of, you know, we're wrapping up this conversation with that profound quote there. So thank you so much for sharing that Petra. Um, so if, you know, people want to reach out to you, connect with you, or maybe work with you, um, how can they do that?

Petra Williams: Yeah totally like jump on my website Fiery Petra Williams It's F I R E Y PetraWilliams. com Or just jump on LinkedIn I do have socials Um, but probably the website's the best place guys Cause I really, Choose not to live life through my screen and I'm one of those life coaches who does not encourage you to follow [01:27:00] me on Socials, I'd rather you just jump on my youtube channel, which is fiery Petra Williams or my website Go and check out what's available there.

If you have a question contact me. There's also Coaching call that you can jump on there if you want to do a 20 minute coaching call with me now, usually I charge 97 for that.

Um, but I will absolutely offer it to you guys for free. We will find a way to make sure that. I do that. The rest and I will talk about that a little bit later, how that's going to happen. Um, and what I also, I have actually written some notes. Um, And I, I will also share that some key takeaways. I was just thinking what other gift can I give you guys?

And because that's such a profound book and some key lessons, I have written notes on that. And I, I'll include that for you guys too, because, you know, sometimes at the reality, I know you're probably not going to go read that book. Ha ha ha! But there are some key takeaways that I really [01:28:00] would love you to take on and meditate and chew on and implement.

So yeah, I'd love to do that.

Nirish Shakya: Great. Yeah. So maybe like, you know, reach out to Petra, um, through her, you know, email or social channels and mentioned that, you know, you've heard her on design feeling. And, um, so that, you know, she knows that, you know, you've come through this podcast.

Petra Williams: Brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. Is that how we're doing it? That's how we're Let's do that. Let's keep it. simple.

That's how we're doing it. Great. We've, we've, we've implemented the inspiration here.

I love it. You're awesome. Thank you

Nirish Shakya: Great. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time and energy and your, you know, joyful energy today. Uh, Petra, uh, thanks for being on the show. Uh, I personally have, you know, taken a lot away from that. Uh, so yeah, thanks for sharing all the insights and wisdom.

Petra Williams: Oh, and thank you so much for the beautiful discussion. I really do appreciate it.

Outro

Nirish Shakya: So, what did you think of the conversation? 

What's the 1 thing that stood out to you? 

Drop it in the comments [01:29:00] below and please consider giving this video like and subscribe 

if you'd like to support this channel And get this video out to more people. 

And feel free to drop me a line if you'd like to share any thoughts or ideas or maybe suggestions for any Topics or guests that you'd like to see? See you next time.