The Power of Pointless Creativity Projects with Steve Chapman

Transcript

[00:00:00]

Intro

Steve Chapman: And it's the opposite of school. Like, school for me was, remember a load of facts to regurgitate in an exam. Whereas this was saying, what what do you, what What is your lived experience? What is your hypothesis? What is your philosophy? Uh, what, What sense are you making of the world?

Meet Steve Chapman: The Artist Exploring Human Creativity

Nirish Shakya: today I'm talking to Steve Chapman and Steve is an artist. He's a writer, speaker, consultant, and coach, and he plays in this space of creativity and the human condition.

Steve Chapman: There are no answers, there is no solution, there is no thing, there is like, we engage with the world and lives like, there is an answer there but I can't quite find it yet but if I just do this, and that relaxing into, there is no answer, there is only your moment by moment experience,

Nirish Shakya: I actually met Steve at a local artist market here in Kingston, in London, and. The reason we actually bumped into each other [00:01:00] was we had our stalls right next to each other and Steve didn't have a cover over a stall and it started raining really heavily that day and Yeah, Steve popped into our tent for some for some shelter and we basically connected over our artwork and I was immediately drawn to Steve's quirky and imperfect looking illustrations, but the more you look at them, the more you look start to unlayer this, deeper, hidden meaning about, yeah, pretty much who we are as humans and about the human condition.

The Power of Imperfection and Creativity

Steve Chapman: The seeds of shame are sown when we're in, Creative flow and we're interrupted and shamed like I might be Doodling at school and I'm told that's not what you do . And so we learn really early in life that actually we must mistrust our spontaneity because bad things may happen.

Nirish Shakya: And something that I [00:02:00] find super inspiring about Steve is that he's not afraid. to play with his creativity. And that's something that I find pretty difficult to do because, with my design training, with my corporate experience, everything has to have a predictable outcome and it's really difficult to let go of that need for an outcome. And that's something I'm hoping to learn from Steve today. A lot of, massive projects that Steve has started, it actually started as random. Pointless activities where he didn't have any expectation of a particular outcome.

Steve Chapman: If i'd sat down and thought right i'm going to create a poster get 4000 of them in 55 countries on every continent in the planet, it would never have happened never have happened I had to let it happen.

happen

Track 1: steve Chapman, welcome to

Design Feeling.

Steve Chapman: Thank you. Um, that's such a lovely introduction. And it makes me think if it didn't rain [00:03:00] that day, maybe we wouldn't be here now. I just love how the chain of events when we would have spoken, but I wouldn't have been sheltering with you in your tent. But no, thank you so much for inviting me on.

Track 1: Yeah, so I mean, you know, I'm not a big fan of the rain, but Sometimes

it can lead to beautiful connections

Steve Chapman: yeah.

Track 1: So, have you been,

Steve Chapman: I've been, I never know how to answer that question. Um,

Track 1: It's it's a very, you know classic, you know,

British small talk

Steve Chapman: Yeah, I always answer it in a confusing way because I answer it literally. It's like, well, I just got back from taking a walk to the vet and she's, yeah, she was okay. Um, what else did I do this morning? I've got a load of washing up to do. And, um, yeah, and I'm catching up on emails this morning. So I always just end up answering what I'm doing.

But no, I'm good. I'm good.

Track 1: Nice nice so this is a question that I haven't really asked, um, probably any of my guests, but I, [00:04:00] I thought it, it's, it's topical for our conversation today.

Discovering Identity Beyond Labels

Track 1: And I wanted to just like start by asking who are you

Steve Chapman: a really good question.

I think I'm, uh, a creature that's obsessed with answering that question. that, like, I don't know. But isn't that fascinating to not know? I mean, I can say, oh, my name's Steve, I'm a white man living in London from the UK, and these are my jobs that I do, but that's not who I am really, is it? So, I just, I'm Deeply fascinated by that.

Who am I in relation to myself and everything else? And I think that's what drives a lot of, a lot of my work. I'm fascinated with not knowing, so I sort of want to not know myself even more. And I think we go the other way with, like, personal development. We're trying to solve something or resolve something.

But, yeah, [00:05:00] I like, I like to remain somewhat of a mystery to myself.

Track 1: Hmm. I guess that's, that's some, that's a reality that, um, is pretty difficult for us to come, to, come to terms with. Right. And the reason I say that is. We get assigned, uh,

structured identities from, from day one is like, all right, you know, you're, you're a, you're a child, you're a toddler, and then you're a student at school, or you are a sports person or an athlete. Um, and then, you know, you go into university and then you go to get a job and you're pretty much assigned these roles, like, okay, you are an engineer or a marketer or whoever. And we so strongly attach ourselves to those, um, identities. Um, and we basically associate our, that question, like who are you to that identity saying, okay, hey, I'm a designer, I'm an artist, I'm a plumber or whoever, right? Um, what was the identity that you, you remember attaching [00:06:00] yourself to um, earlier in your, in your, life or yeah. I mean, I can completely relate to that. I think I Utterly consumed by that labelling and falling into that for many years My earliest thing that I can remember and I probably aged Six I ate something like that was I wouldn't have even described myself as an artist, but I liked making stuff I liked drawing stuff.

Steve Chapman: I liked making music. I liked recording radio shows on a little cassette player. I just liked making stuff and

Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have described myself as an, as an artist then, but that really early thing was, this is, this is just what naturally feels like the type of thing that I do. And I guess that erodes over time, school certainly eroded that and then going into the world of work. It's like, if you don't, if you can't label it, it doesn't exist.

And then certain labels you give yourself don't have prospects for earning money and doing well and [00:07:00] being part of a functioning society. So. Yeah, I think they were the earliest labels. And I think I've gone back to that. I think it's like a U shaped thing in my life. That I've sort of reconnected more with 7 and 8 year old me.

Track 1: Who, who is the, that person, the seven year old or

eight year old Steve? I think it's a Someone that hasn't quite labelled the way they think and see the world and their imagination works and respond and talk. They haven't yet labelled that as wrong or broken or dysfunctional in some way. Whereas what soon happened after that was, not good at school, not good at these things, don't think in a conventional way.

Steve Chapman: And it sort of starts to get labelled as, oh, that's not good stuff, I need to mask or readjust. So I think it's a free, it's a free but not very wise creature back then. And [00:08:00] hopefully now I'm recovering that freedom also with a bit more wisdom, being a lot older now.

Track 1: Hmm. Free but not wise. So would you say now you

are free and

wise?

Steve Chapman: don't know, I just, I'm also brilliantly contradicting myself. Um, I think I was probably wiser then. That was a very western way of thinking of wisdom, it's like experience and knowledge. But if wisdom is really being open to possibility and not knowing, I was probably wiser then. Um, but that's part of, like, that's what I'm trying to get back to now is for nothing to have any particular point to it, for nothing to need a label, for nothing to be consistent.

So I guess, yeah, I'm trying to, I think I probably was wiser then. And I just fell into the trap of labelling that as maybe not as wise.

Steve's Journey from Corporate to Creative Freedom

Track 1: So you spent 20 years in the corporate world, um, as a,

in a culture change slash human development expert. How, [00:09:00] what made you then transition into this life of, of, I guess, more.

Create freedom, maybe

Steve Chapman: Yeah. I think I started to realise that two things maybe. One was that was only ever meant to be a temporary thing while I pursued my career in radio. And it's like, hold on, this has been 20 years now, that's not temporary. And the other thing was thinking, this, this is crazy, this world, it makes no sense to me.

It's like, is it, am I doing anything that I really want to do? Am I really making any difference? And so there was a point that, so I went straight into the world of work from school. I like, did A level geography just so I could go up mountains, didn't pass that. I got a job in a factory, and it was through working in the factory.

in that same organization that I've gradually worked my way up because I was good at working with people. And I think I fell into that trap of, I think the whole reason, one of the things [00:10:00] that kept me in that role was self doubt. And it's that that mantra of, this is the best you're going to get, because you're sort of broken and not very good in some way.

So don't rock the boat. And it was through doing a lot of development sort of in my 30s, I guess, that I started to really challenge that assumption. Various things that I did thinking, actually no, what if, what if the reason that none of this makes sense to me, I don't enjoy it, is just because it's not for me.

So there's that sort of turning point, but I just fell into that, I had no desire to do that work. I wanted to work in radio when I was at school, um, and I saw a career advisor and they, for some reason I went to see the career advisor with my parents there, which is a really bad idea I think. And the career, I said I want to work in

Track 1: reinforce their beliefs What

Steve Chapman: there was two things that I said I said I want to work in radio or I want to work in in the music industry and I remember saying maybe as a roadie just to start to work out how it works and [00:11:00] The career advisor just looked my parents and said well roadies, but it's not a job And he said in radio you have to be really good to get into radio.

And so I don't recommend that either. It's just like And I believed that and my parents believed that So I sort of fell

Track 1: what do

you what do they mean, by good?

Steve Chapman: I mean, they're right. Radio is a very cutthroat industry that is very Only a few people rise to the top to make a huge amount of money. But I think it was that. I think he was totally focusing on what is the best way to make lots of money consistently.

Pension, all of those types of things. And perhaps only the people presenting a national breakfast show get that. So I think that's what he meant by good, rather than what is something that is fascinating and enjoyable and aligned. And this is where podcasting is democratized radio because you can have that as an outlet.

But yeah, I think there was some judgments, just judgments around who is this [00:12:00] kid who wants to do this weird thing that most kids don't want to do. And he can't even explain why he wants to do it and articulate it very well. It was just an instinct for me. And then I fell into that world and Part of it was, um, self doubt, thinking, well, I can't, I can't, I shouldn't rock the boat, I'm earning some money.

And the other thing was that I was just good at it. So, uh, thinking of culture, I'm always questioning things, but, uh, how do people work? Why is this happening? Not believing any of the very linear, logical, Models of culture and culture change. They're all nonsense. They're all just designed to reduce anxiety.

So, I sort of found a way of challenging in a way that was, um, I guess compassionate and curious. And then, yeah. That point in my thirties of just thinking actually, no. It was at that point that I started dismantling my life, I think. All these things that have just been support rods. What happens [00:13:00] if I gently take them away?

Track 1: Hmm. What were you hoping to achieve out of that?

Steve Chapman: Very short and unhelpful answer is I've no idea. Um, but I think that's a theme in all of my work and some of the projects you've mentioned. It's just there is an embodied, somatic instinct that this is what is, is being called for. This is what I need to do. And I don't, I have it less now, but I'd always get in battles between my instincts and my, my logical mind.

So some of the first things I did was like going part time in that job. Which doesn't sound very scary now, but there's that whole battle of like, actually I need to do this. And my head going, no, don't be ridiculous, you're going to lose this money, where are you going to get the money from? It's just, nope, I'm going to do it.

And then leaving that job completely. And then being in a consultancy, that I went straight into a consultancy, and then leaving that. [00:14:00] And I think it is the thing that I'm, I'm not hoping for something, but I'm just really trusting that instinct, that there's something, there's something that. If I give it attention and love and curiosity, something fascinating will unfurl, but I don't know what it is.

And that was, yeah, I think that underpins all of my, all of my work now.

Track 1: Hmm was this a gradual kind of process or

did it just

happen

Steve Chapman: No, I mean, I think if it was a TED talk, there'd be one event and one conversation that changed everything, but I don't think life works like that. But yeah, it was a gradual thing. So it was just because the nature of doing the sort of. Culture consulting work, you do, you learn a lot about yourself through doing that and a lot of the training I did, I started training a lot in gestalt psychology, which still underpins a lot of my work.

And so that started nurturing some stuff. Then [00:15:00] I think the big events and as a series of them. So that led to me doing some training with the NTO Institute, which is an American Institute, National Training Laboratories, which is an American Institute, National Training Laboratories. that founded a lot of the group relational theory post World War II.

And I went to do a year's training with them. And the first module of that was a thing called a T group, which I don't know if you've come across a T group before. It was basically 16 people sitting in a circle for 40 hours with no agenda. And the only thing, the only thing you can talk about is what's going on for you.

You can't take it, you can't talk about anything else other than what's going on. And you have two facilitators whose job is just to make sure people are okay and that you're following the process. It's not 40 hours solid, it was 10 hours a day for four days. But you can't hide from yourself in that environment.

Um, and weirdly tea groups are meant to be as diverse as possible. I was the only man in my tea group. A mix of women from all, all different places, all different ages. [00:16:00] And so I think that was such a significant thing in like asking myself who I am. Um, but that wasn't the thing that changed everything. Uh, that led me on to go to do a master's degree at Ashridge.

Which was just, again, it was people that knew me and knew how I thought said, Yeah, you'll be good at this. And I wouldn't have done Ashridge without the T group experience. And then as a result of that, I mean the master's was amazing. It's, I'd never done, I did A levels as I said, I got a D and A level Geography.

And I was, I felt sick when I first got to Ashridge. It's just like, felt like such an academic place. It's like Hogwarts, and it's like, I don't belong here. And my first assignment, which was a pass fail assignment to get onto the programme, I wrote I wish I had it, I can't find it. But my original draft, I wrote in what I thought was good academic voice.

And it was all very, oh, so and so says this theory about something, and this is a theory, and this is blah blah blah. And my tutor at the time delivered some [00:17:00] really harsh feedback, but it was so important. He said, this all sounds very intellectual, but I can't see you in this. You need to write from your reflexive perspective.

If you can't do that, you won't make it on this programme. So I was devastated thinking, oh no, I fucked it up already. But he encouraged me to just write from my own perspective. And it's the opposite of school. Like, school for me was, remember a load of facts to regurgitate in an exam. Whereas this was

saying, what what do you, what what is your lived experience? What is your hypothesis? What is your philosophy? Uh, what, what sense are you making of the world? And then use theory to add into it. Um, but that first perspective of what is my, it was like, it's amazing that someone is really interested in this crazy way that I see the world. And I did brilliantly on that master's, I got an overall distinction in the master's and my dissertation got the highest mark at the time I'd ever rewarded for a dissertation.

So that for me was like a massive thing [00:18:00] of like, Oh, maybe I should listen to my own perspective a bit more.

Track 1: Hmm.

Steve Chapman: And then obviously leaving the world of work and various other things. But I think it was over that period of time rather than one event. There was like something was bubbling up that I just kept on exponentially letting bubble up.

Track 1: Hmm.

Navigating the Corporate World with Creativity

Track 1: a lot of us in, are in the world of work, especially corporate work, and what I, my experience of corporate world is there are certain targets you need to hit. You're working towards certain KPIs, um, predictable outcomes, um, reusable processes, efficiency. Um, how, how would you, I guess, inject a bit [00:19:00] more, you know, creative freedom into such, um, methodical systems, which is all about efficiency rather than seeing what happens because they don't want to see what happened.

They want to know exactly what the outcome will be based on what methods you follow. Um, so although, you know, the corporate lingo for that might be experimentation, but, um, and I remember watching one of your talks where you said, um, Experimentation is only an experiment when you don't know what's going to happen. But, you know, stakeholders want to know

exactly what's going to happen from day one. Ha

Steve Chapman: yeah, it's riddled with contradictions, isn't it? I mean, I think I'll answer your question about creative freedom in two ways. But for me, it's just even in subtlety of the language gives us a clue that you described in the world of work. And [00:20:00] looking out my window, where, where is, where is this world?

Where is this world of work? So when, where's the portal to get into this world of work?

Track 1: ha.

Steve Chapman: Because literally it's the same world. And I'm not, I'm not criticizing what you're saying. It becomes so dominant in language. It's the world of work. And we talk about the organization as if it's a thing. The organization doesn't exist.

It's not a thing. You can't put it in a wheelbarrow. Now you can put buildings and stuff, but it's. It's the same patterning of human interaction as we are now, as the people are out on the street in Surbiton at the moment, as maybe people in a war zone are, or people going to the theatre together. It's the same patterning of human interaction, but there's different, there's different needs, there's different norms that we're paying more attention to.

And it's one of the things I always used to, I went on to teach on the consulting masters at Ashridge. And one of the, we'd get lots of questions around, So, had to do this in an organisation, and I'd always [00:21:00] ask, what is this thing you're calling an organisation? Because when we start to strip it back, we realise that there isn't more or less creative freedom in this world of work that's illusionary.

It's just something happens to us in relation to others. Um, there'll be a certain amount, so Eric Fromm wrote a lot, Eric Fromm wrote a really good book called Escape from Freedom, and in it he talks about, I've simplified his language because I understand it better, but in it he talks about intrinsic and extrinsic freedom.

So extrinsic freedom being the amount of freedom, and I think of it as freedom of spontaneous self expression. So extrinsic freedom is the amount of freedom of spontaneous expression I feel I can have around here without being. rejected or humiliated or attacked or something. And then intrinsic freedom is that same amount but within me.

So the types of things that I may have an idea but I will berate myself for it or have my inner critic or my super ego. [00:22:00] And that, that amount of freedom, the potential for that doesn't change whether in the world of work or not, in, in reality, but it does in our experience of it. And I think in the world of work, we just get really interesting patterns.

And I'm calling it the world of work in inverted commas, but I'm not going to keep doing inverted commas because it doesn't work on a podcast to start with. Um, but there's something about, I'm fascinated by that moment that we walk through the doors of an office. What changes? It's like outside is this messy, largely unpredictable, strange thing.

And then we go in and it just seems like it's more ordered. So I think that's the question is like, how do we adjust ourselves? What are the subtle adjustments we make to ourselves? And how we experience others and our expectations as we go through the doors? And that whole, back to the whole thing of more creative freedom, it's I don't know.

Because everything's on a, like a [00:23:00] contextual case by case basis. If there's a specific example, then we might be able to work that out. But I think it's another trap to do with creativity. We want this amorphous, strange, emergent, imaginative, challenging thing, but in ways that are repeatable, predictable, controllable, measurable.

And that's, that's crazy, isn't it? That's never going to work. But I think that Ralph Stacey, who was a scholar, who was a quite big influence on my work at Ashridge, he used to say most of the traditions that organisations do are simply institutionalised defences against anxiety. They reduce our anxiety enough that we can function and interact and helps us forget that none of us are really in control of anything, really.

And so I think a way to start to explore creative freedom is like, is what a guy called Barry Mason called safe uncertainty. How can we create a place where we experience safe uncertainty? Which means that things can be uncertain but feel safe at the same time. [00:24:00] Because we're quite freaky creatures aren't we?

We're hairless upright apes that, We can't fall very far, we can't run very fast, we can't swim very fast, we die if it's too cold, we die if it's too hot. We, we, in evolutionary terms, it's not that long ago that we were prey, rather than predators. We're standing on a ball of rock in the infinity of space, flying around a massive nuclear explosion, beyond which we don't know what's happening.

But we worry about putting a pen to paper to do a drawing. So, I think we're naturally predisposed to be anxious. And some of that manifests in the

workplace. Um, and also I think with, with creative freedom in organizations, it's, I always ask the question like, really, really, is that what you want? Because there's some fundamental things that I'd say to a CEO that's saying, I want more creative freedom of my people.

And it would be, first of all, say, really? Um, my second question would be, what are you going to do when someone does something you don't like? Um, I'd ask, what are you prepared to let go of? Because you're part of the [00:25:00] problem. It's like this whole thing of we, we describe. Organizational life is like we describe, it's like being stuck in traffic.

You're not stuck in traffic. You are traffic. You're part of this patterning.

And quite often it's like when you ask those questions, what are you gonna let go of? What are you gonna do? When someone does something that you don't like, it's you realize that they're not really serious about it. And I'm okay with that.

I think the horrible, I'd rather, there's an organization that said, we are not interested in creativity whatsoever. You come here like ants to do this work and that's the deal. I prefer that to this horrible. And people go there because they want to. I mean, not people being trapped in that. But that feels easier to work with than this.

We are open, we are free, we are innovative, but we're not really. We don't really want anything to change around here. So that was a big ranty monologue around your question about creative freedom. Um, I think it completely starts with the individual thinking, How am I different here? How am I different now?

What would it need to change for me to, [00:26:00] don't know, even wear slightly different clothes? Or The organization I was working with a month or so ago, it was horrified that I turned up in jeans. Um, it's like I'd turned up naked. Because for them, that was beyond the norm. Uh, and it challenged them stuff. So, I'm not saying jeans are a creative thing.

It could be that I wore a pinstripe suit to Glastonbury or something, I don't know. It's just, it's just showing up different to the norm. What happens? When something is different to the norm. Gregor Greetson said, his quote that I loved was, Change is news of difference. So, how, how okay is it to be different?

To show up as different? How okay, how threatened do I feel? And how threatened do others feel by that?

Track 1: Yeah. I think, um, a lot of those, um, Rules and norms are dictated by the

environment and the context that you're in, right?

Uh, different tribes have different rules, norms of behavior, and [00:27:00] I guess we are conditioned to follow them subconsciously if we want to be part of that group

and not get, um, thrown out into the wilderness

where we might get attacked And eaten

and die.

Steve Chapman: Yeah. Absolutely. and it comes down to, I mean, people may laugh at that, but I think fundamentally, we're, that's, we're programmed that. As higher order mammals, the herd and being around other humans is, is so important to us. And that threatens our superego and our, like, really early structure of our inner critics, like, if we lose contact with important human beings when we're tiny, tiny infants, we can't survive.

Mm. But that, that, what you've just said there reminds me of, that, that's my interest in the role of the outsider in creativity, the role of the inexpert in creativity. Because the untrained person never knew the rules. So They accidentally break them. And so, like, it's my interest in outsider art. Art made by people that have never been [00:28:00] trained in art make weird and strange, but really visceral art.

And I'd always look to an outsider, and there could be any number of ways you describe an outsider, to bring creative freedom than an expert. This is the whole Shunryu Suzuki idea, isn't it? In the mind of a beginner, there are infinite possibilities. In the mind of an expert, there's a few. So that's one of the things why I always try to approach stuff to deepen not knowing.

Because as soon as I become an expert in something, it's like, I've lost it then.

Track 1: Yeah. And that's something that is difficult to do

when you're being paid to be an

Steve Chapman: Absolutely. Yeah. Now this is the really important thing. This is when people say, what do you do? It's like, are you asking how I earn money or what do I do? And they're different questions. It's like, how can you earn money? But it's how could you earn lots and lots of money, or how could you earn enough money to survive versus how can you just experience freedom in [00:29:00] the wild?

I think they're different questions, and they're all interlinked. Because it clearly is much easier to go along with norms. Because the way that society's structured, and I'm just saying this from my own experience, it's really difficult to swim outside of those and support yourself or a family or anything like that.

Track 1: So is there a point to, you know,

swimming out of those

norms? Um, I don't know. I can't not do it

Hmm.

Steve Chapman: because it's again, it's just that instinct. It's like, Oh, what happens if I do this? Um, and I just feel like I'm,

if I, I think if when it feels like my create my freedom of spontaneous expression is getting too curtailed. I feel like I'm just shriveling up and [00:30:00] that makes it even harder. The more that I move towards that too. Get paid work. I mean you get some really good, interesting paid work from people that are up for it.

But it just, it's almost like becoming less and less generally employable the more you move towards that. But I can't, I can't not do it. It makes no sense. I just have that thing where my head's going, come on. Come on, you had this nailed 15 years ago. What are you doing? I just like the mischief of it. No one knows how long we've got left.

Nothing really has a point to it. I don't mean that in a nihilist, uh, nihilist sense. Yeah, the point is to experiment, I think. Or the point for me is. I'm not suggesting

that is for

Track 1: I guess, you know, you, you

make your own point. You define your own point. You know,

you make your own meaning.

Steve Chapman: Yeah, Yeah, absolutely. And it's fleeting and not replicable and the way that I will experience something will be different to the way that you experience it.

But that's the thing is, I can only describe it as I don't know why and I can't not do it. A lot of the time. I [00:31:00] think I enjoy it more than I don't enjoy it. So.

Track 1: Yeah,

Steve Chapman: be 51%, 49 percent sometimes, but overall, I think, yeah,

The Lost Cat Project: A Lesson in Letting Go

Track 1: speaking of, um, having a point or not having a point, um, you have started a lot of, um, pointless projects in which started off at pointless projects. And one of them,

um, is called the lost no, yeah, project or not a lost cat project.

Tell me, tell me a bit about that project. mean, that's it. That one is such a good example of,

Steve Chapman: yeah, stuff, something not having a point, but having being so compelling. So the abridged version of that story is I was walking my dog in the woods one day and I saw a real lost cat poster. And it was this magnificent cat with like a little mountain lion with big ears tiny little cross eyes It's like quite a strange thing and I almost [00:32:00]didn't walk over to the poster I saw it in the distance and then it was just something in it was like I'm going to go and see that poster.

Arnie Mindell writes of this idea of quantum flirting, which is such a brilliant term. And that's the practice of being open to things calling to you. And I always say to people, if you want ideas, don't go looking for them. That's the worst thing to do. It's your practice to remain open to them whispering.

So I went over and looked at this poster. And I thought, that's interesting. And there was a bit at the bottom that said, Take a photo of this poster to share with your friends and on social media to help bring him home. And I thought, that's a good way of. Spreading the word about your cat. Um, but what if this person's cat isn't really missing?

And this, this, I always say this guy, I'm assuming it's a man, but I don't know. That this person just wanted their cat to go viral. Because it's such a brilliant cat. So I went home, it was a rainy day, and I painted a poster. Um, it's a fake poster. I know it's a podcast, YouTube. [00:33:00] Um,

Track 1: Yeah, if you're watching this on YouTube, then, um,

you can see the, the poster

Steve Chapman: so I just need to make sure. So that's the poster. So I painted this fake cat and it says on it, uh, this is not one of those posters about a lost cat. My cat isn't lost. In fact, I don't even have a cat. I just wanted to show you this painting of this, my painting of this magnificent piece. And then it says reward yourself and buy this painting for 300.

So it's a silly thing. There was no point to it really. Um, I did it because I was bored. I fancied painting that cat. And I put it on my Instagram. I almost didn't put it on my Instagram. And lots of people said, oh this is amazing, can we have it as a print? So I did a limited print run of like

Track 1: What did

people like

about the

poster?

Steve Chapman: I don't know. I think they just like the strangeness of it. I mean, lots of people over the years have said that's such a bad painting of a cat. I don't think that's a, I haven't painted that thinking, look, this looks just like a real cat. But I think [00:34:00] there's something about it that it's, it's weird without, I didn't intend it to be a weird poster.

And I think there's something about that, that when things try to be surreal, they end up not being surreal or try to be weird. So there's just something compelling about it, maybe the way it looks. Um, but the, the prints, I should have done a larger print run of 30 prints sold out in 48 hours. So I thought, ah, there's something in this.

So I got some posters printed up and, like, from the money I made from the prints. And I put, I don't know, 10 posters up in East London. All around Brick Lane where a lot of the street art is, some outside the Tate Modem. And people kept getting, seeing them and getting in contact with me saying, Can I have one of these?

This is amazing. Um, and then a journalist found it on that first day and said, what's this about? I said, I don't, I don't know. I don't know what this is about. Just some posters. And to cut a long story short, what

Track 1: told them you don't know. what it's

Steve Chapman: Yeah, I don't know. They didn't write a story about it because I didn't have a

Track 1: I love that.

Steve Chapman: [00:35:00] Because I don't. It's like, it's not a movement. I don't, I just wanted to put some posters up. It seemed like a good idea. And I think it's always that. I wonder what would happen if I put these up.

Track 1: And there's so much courage in just, being able to admit that.

Steve Chapman: Right, yeah, it just, I find it easier than having to have a reason. So, yeah. But then what happened, and I think this is one of the practices, um, that I accidentally do in my work, is to remain free of outcome. To remain free of an objective. So that, just that, looking at the poster, painting the picture, selling the prints, turning into the posters, it's just started like an exponential thing where people would see a poster and then order a poster from me.

And then they'd put it up and someone else would see it and it just grew exponentially. And at the start I'd send the posters out for free. But then I started getting requests from all around the world, from all over the UK, so I had to start charging postage, but they remained free. And at the time of speaking, so this is two years ago now, there's almost [00:36:00] 4, 000 posters in 55 countries on every continent on the planet.

including

Antarctica. And it's an amazing photo that someone sent me from Antarctica when people

Track 1: How did

they end up in

Steve Chapman: Well, it ended up that one was slightly manipulated by me because they naturally went to every continent. And it's like, I don't know, I wanted to get one on Antarctica, just so I could say it's conquered the planet.

And I thought you can't just send stuff to that. It's like, I don't know, how do you even contact Antarctica? But on Instagram, there was a chef that was being posted to Antarctica. Um, because they, they're obviously remote there. They get some really good chefs in who posted in the McMurdo station, the American station.

And I just messaged him, direct messaged this is a weird question. Would you be willing to take one? And he said, yeah. And he said that he had such a tiny amount that he was allowed to pack because it's such a small space. So he smuggled one in and then he took the picture. [00:37:00] So which was amazing, but it's, it's the, it just blows my mind of how crazy that went.

And then some days I'd wake up and I'd have like, like, 200 orders for Lost Cat posters. And it was in the Observer magazine, or, uh, it was on Zoe Ball's breakfast show on Radio 2 in the UK. Uh, it was, it was in weird places, like it was in Modern Cat magazine. And so, it just keeps spreading and spreading.

And it, it just embodies that, that philosophy, I guess. I've done, I've spoken on some talks just about the Lost Cat project to marketing people. And I've said, Could you do that for us? And it's like, no, I couldn't because it'd have a point to it. Because if it was like to sell cat food or you're trying to seed it, this naturally happened for people's curiosity.

And I think people being compelled to be part of a pointless movement, to feel part of an artistic experiment. And yeah, it carries on to this day. It's gone [00:38:00] quieter at the moment, which is always nice because I don't make any money from this. But yeah, it's just a crazy thing if i'd set out if i'd sat down and thought right i'm going to create a poster Get 4000 of them in 55 countries on every continent in the planet.

It would never have happened never have happened I had to let it

happen

Track 1: Why do you

think that?

Steve Chapman: Because I would have first of all, I would have overthought it and then talked myself out of it Because I would have thought well, I need to work out a budget for it. I need to work out Um how i'm going to fund it how i'm going to seed it around I would have overthought it rather than let it naturally emerge And I think that's, that's one of the things, one of the practices in my work is the practice of leap then look.

Like I'll have a curious question and then I need to try it before I talk myself out of it. And most of the projects have been like that. This is a very low cost leap then look because it cost me, I don't know, a hundred quid to do the prints that I then sold and then whatever the posters now pay for themselves.[00:39:00]

But that's, I don't, it wouldn't have happened in that way, and the same with any other project. And I think that's, that's me testing that instinct I was talking about earlier. The reason why I left a job, the reason why various things in my life have changed. It was just, nah, I'm too attached to this being something in particular.

Track 1: Hmm. Wow. I mean, that is such an interesting story.

Embracing Spontaneity and Overcoming Fear

Track 1: And I'm trying to see, like, how this applies to our day to day, where, you know, for example, like, I find it really difficult to, you know, put things out there because I might be like, Oh, it's not good enough. You know, what if people think it's shit

and then people think I'm shit.

Steve Chapman: Yeah.

Track 1: Um, and I'm sure like a lot of people out there are on the same boat where they might have a lot of ideas, but they don't put it out there for the world to see

for the fear of, you know, being judged or [00:40:00] made fun of or

whatever.

Steve Chapman: Well

Track 1: What advice

would you

Steve Chapman: that's that intrinsic freedom that I was talking about. So we could think that there is the world of work and not work or various things like that. Um, you've just named there beautifully that. There is a fear inside you that a judgment will be made about the thing that you've put out there.

So we're fearful of our spontaneous self expression. And I think for me, a lot of the work I do, like workshops and stuff, is about rehabilitating spontaneity. Learning to re trust and recover choice. It doesn't mean that you're suddenly going to be spontaneous and blurting everything out. But you're going to be, you're going to have more choice and agency in that.

Because I think early in life, the seeds of shame are sown when we're in, Creative flow and we're interrupted and shamed like I might be Doodling at school and I'm told that's not what you do or I might be doing something weird as a child I'm totally in flow and then it's like that's bad. That's naughty And so we learn [00:41:00] really early in life that actually we must mistrust our spontaneity because bad things may happen And that's because we're kids and we don't we don't know But really we can recover some choice around that.

It's like what? What, what would happen if you put an idea out that you didn't know if it was shit or not? What, what really would, and I'm saying this, this is real fears that we have, so I'm not belittling them. What, what would you fear would happen if you put out something spontaneous?

Track 1: that a

Steve Chapman: Yeah.

Track 1: Yeah, so I guess the first fear is, is this good enough for the world? Because I guess the world, in my mind, the world has high standards because you see the works of great artists and designers, photographers. And then you try to compare your work, which in your mind

looks pretty shitty compared to the, you know, the greats. And you [00:42:00] automatically put yourself down and you start to create scenarios in your head of,

Oh Yeah. it's not ready yet. I need to kind of work on it a bit more, a bit

longer. And it never goes out.

Steve Chapman: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Is this, is this good enough? And again, I love that phrase you used, the world has high standards. It's, but again, if we bring that back down to um, This idea of projection. If you spot it, you've got it. You point one finger forwards, four fingers back type of thing. It's like, well no, you have high standards.

For your work. And others may have high standards of it. And I totally get this. I'm I sort of don't care if anyone likes my artwork or not. But when it comes to music, Um, I'm exactly the same. I won't put stuff out. Because I worry that people think it's shit. And I torture myself by playing it open mics and things like that.

Track 1: Wait, so how is a different

mindset for you when it comes to

Steve Chapman: I don't know yet. It's, I think it's that next edge for me is how I was with the art originally. I think maybe music's a bit more [00:43:00] revealing that with art you can put it up and run away or watch from a corner if you're performing. And particularly the open mic stuff I do is performing solo on a battered guitar music that I've written, which normally tends to be from stuff in my life.

It's, it feels a lot more exposing. And a lot more chance of being shamed and ridiculed. But over time, that's getting easier. And I think it's that immediacy of it, where one of the first exhibitions I did was at a gallery in Derby. And I got, it was, someone invited me up that knew that I did some artwork.

And I had to paint this mural directly onto the wall of the gallery. And I was thinking, oh God, they made a mistake here. This is This is going to be terrible and ironically the mural was of this creature asking the question am I a bad drawing? And then when I went up and I thought oh the gallery is going to be shut but I got up and the gallery was open and not only that they'd put a red rope around where I was going to be painting and people kept walking [00:44:00] in going oh look he's an artist at work and it, I hated it.

I hated it. Absolutely terrible and excruciating, um, but I don't feel that edge anymore. So I think with music, the reason why I keep Going to do these torturous things is it just feels like a new edge that I'm working it gets slightly easier each time The last one I did I sort of didn't think it was that good But I didn't care really as much as I did before and for me, it's always like what's this next edge?

What why is that different? That's surely that's in me and in my expectations of society and the norms that society has made around things such as music I think you can hide a bit more in art.

Track 1: So you, what you're saying is you, when it comes to music, you care more compared to your art. Yeah, I care more about what people think of it. I think I care the same amount about it. It's like, I think, yeah, this is just a thing that I'm expressing in a [00:45:00] different way. But I care more about what people think about it.

Why is

Steve Chapman: I don't know yet. My genuine answer is I don't know, but that's why I keep doing it.

I think it's, I don't know, I think maybe music's more important to me than I'd realised.

Track 1: So is caring less better for our creativity?

Steve Chapman: That's a good question. It's tempting to just say yes, but I don't, I don't think, I think it's more nuanced than that.

I don't know. I think feedback loops are really important in this. So, I'd never make any art for Instagram. And I say, and maybe it's a bit flippant to say, I don't care if people like it or not. I'm not devastated if people don't like it. It's probably a more accurate thing. And I like it when people like it, because it's almost like a little stroke or like a feedback loop.

But this is [00:46:00] People are liking this, or they're inspired by it, or it's made them laugh, or it's made them confused, or it's made them angry. I mean, you want to provoke an action in part. So those feedback loops, I think, are really, really helpful. But I think I really care. I just think I still really care in the art.

There's something Oh, that's a really good question. I'm less judgmental of myself in the art. So I'm more confident in it. If someone said, I don't know, can you do this drawing for me, and I enjoyed doing it, I'd be more confident in that. But I think that's a real, it's a visceral edge for me. So I've done 15 open mics now.

And I used to play in bands and stuff years ago, but there's something about that rawness.

The Torturous Art of Creation

Steve Chapman: And before each one, um, I dread doing it. I try to talk myself out of doing it. I hate it during the process. And then afterwards, I wish I hadn't done it every single time. And I might go and do another one this Wednesday.

So, [00:47:00] and it's not just torturing. It's. It is helping me make sense of something in some way, but I don't know what yet.

Track 1: Hmm. Yeah,

yeah,

The Evolution of a Photographer: From Passion to Pressure

Track 1: Because the reason I asked that, um, question is, um, For example, I am also a photographer on the side and when I was starting out, I just didn't care what kind of photos I took, I just went out and took photos, lots and lots of photos and that's how I got better, right,

And I used to put them on Instagram, got like what, 5 likes? I didn't care, you know, because I wasn't really doing it for the likes because I really enjoyed it. And slowly but surely, like I got better, I got more followers, more likes, and eventually like I won a few awards. And now, I seem to care more about what work I put out there. I'm like, Oh, you know what?

I can't put out shitty work. People have certain expectations of me. And now

I just don't post as much because I only post like some of my best work. [00:48:00] And I feel like that kind of um, has It just made me feel less

creative and less in flow because I'm not creating and going out and shooting as much.

Steve Chapman: do you think that is? Is it that?

The High Standards Trap: Creativity vs. Expectation

Steve Chapman: Yeah, I'm fascinated by that.

Track 1: Because I've just

set myself much higher expectations now. I'm not, I guess, experimenting as much. I'm like, yeah, if I

create something, it has to be

Steve Chapman: yeah. great. yeah. I think this is, I can relate to that. It's like, I'm very discerning about what I'll put on, I'll put out on Instagram or put in my shop or something. So it isn't just like any old thing. I, I have to love it as well. I have to really love the thing. And because if I'm not going to love it, no one else is.

And that's that for me feels different of having to having a high standard. And it's, it's that thing of intentionality, isn't it? It's like, [00:49:00] if I, I hate commissions and I hate deadlines because I can't, that for that similar reasons, I can't do it. It just feels like it has to be pressured. I can't allow stuff to emerge.

That's what it made me think of when you were saying that it's almost like. We can get to a stage where we try, we're trying too hard to make something good.

Finding Freedom in Artistic Expression

Steve Chapman: Uh, for me, it's when I, I lived on, I mean you know this story but I'll say it for the podcast. I lived on Ocracoke Island off the coast of the US for all of January last year.

It was an art experiment. It was never, yeah, it was another thing that came out of nowhere that ended up being an art residency. Um, and I put a lot of it on social media. So, I There was a crowd fund to pay for art materials. The guy that was funding it paid for my flights and the accommodation, and then he paid for fellow artist JD Woof to come out for the last couple of weeks.

And I got there, and I got to Ocracoke, and I [00:50:00] had this 800 of art materials sitting there. I had patrons that were expecting updates from me, and

I just, no, but exactly, I just didn't want to make anything. And I kept thinking I should paint some stuff. It's like, what can I paint? And I was like, I get some material.

I think, no, I need to be productive. And that was just killing it. I was just stuck in that loop. So I just had to, I decided I'm only going to make stuff that spontaneously emerges that suddenly is like, Oh fuck, I need to make this. And that was so difficult for like three days. I made nothing, absolutely nothing.

I didn't feel like making it. I started feeling really down. It's like, Oh, I really have. Stuck my neck out too far here. I'm really not an artist. And I felt so fed up and alone and down. I just went through, I thought I need to get lost. I just need to get utterly lost, which is easy on Ocracoke. And I rode my crappy bike to the beach.

And just went walking. Really blustery day. And then I found some driftwood that had washed up. [00:51:00] And I thought, oh that's interesting. I looked at it and there was nice patterns on it. And I thought, that would look really good if I was to spray it white. And I sprayed it white, and I thought, oh, that's good.

And then I painted it, and then I found another bit of driftwood. And to cut a long story short, I made this sign that said, I need to be alone. And I installed it on the beach. And just thought, oh. And it took me about two or three hours, but I loved making it. It naturally emerged as something. And then that led to a whole chain of events, where the locals saw it, they found out about me.

Ended up making more Driftwood work, made some stuff with Joe when she came out. We got a radio show from it and then there was an article in the PA and we, it just spread from there. But that was such a fundamental lesson for me because that those first three days was like, you must be productive. You have to make good stuff.

You have to give people value for money. And I think for me, where that's where I get stuck and it's where with Instagram it can be a curse is. I, my job is to be fascinated [00:52:00] by stuff. Instagram's a window into my world. It's not my world. It's like, I don't make stuff for it. If I've not made anything over the last week, there'll be nothing on Instagram.

Um, and then there's stuff around pacing and algorithms and things like that. But I think we can get it the other way around where we're just a slave to content. And then that puts pressure on ourselves to be productive. But if I'd been productive in Ocracoke, none of those things would have happened, none of those brilliant things would have happened.

I had to get lost. I had to resist being productive.

Track 1: I love that. So you basically, rather than forcing yourself into creating work, um,

you let go of that and you

allow things to happen instead.

Mm,

Steve Chapman: that quantum flirting. It's the process of relaxing and being open to, being permeable, rather than tensing up. And that's where I always think money screws everything up. Um, particularly if we really need to [00:53:00]earn money, like if we're really close to the breadline, or we need money to survive or feed our children, or, I mean, that's just even in, in the UK, and there's, yeah, if you've been living in poverty, that's got to really change that stuff.

But money starts to screw it up, because as soon as there's money, at least for me, it's like there's a perceived value to it then. And it normally comes with a deadline and an expectation. So that's where I do commissions, but with my artwork, it's like, here's stuff I've made, if you want to buy it, you can buy it.

But I don't really make on demand, because it feels too

pressured.

Track 1: Yeah.

And I personally find that creating these intentional spaces to get lost

Steve Chapman: Yeah.

Track 1: is really important

for our creative well

Steve Chapman: Yeah.

Track 1: Because we might not have that space of flexibility in our day job, which might be very regimented. And like, personally, I feel like that can really suck the soul out of our existence. [00:54:00] And I think we have to be deliberate in terms of creating spaces

outside of maybe our day

Steve Chapman: Yeah. Yeah, no, I'm totally with you on that. And for me, it's, my friend Rob Poynton described it, he wasn't describing this, but I just suddenly remembered his analogy. He said, it's like trying to learn to ride a unicycle. If you, if you try to learn to ride a unicycle and your objective is to not fall off and lose your balance, it won't work.

Riding a unicycle is correct, is continually correcting how unbalanced you are. So you're always unbalanced. And I think it's a similar thing, like if I have too much space, I don't like it. If I'm too restricted, I don't like it. And so it's just that continually rebalancing, like last week, being immersed in this space.

I was doing five days a week traveling to the same place every day was too much for me. The week before I had nothing and I'm just bored and fed up and can't be motivated. So I think it's constantly [00:55:00] again not trying to seek. An answer but constantly thinking how am I doing right now? What do I need right now?

Do I need more or less structure? Do I have more or less freedom right now?

Track 1: How do you find that balance? Like, is there some kind of self reflection technique you have? Or Yeah, how do you

kind of identify

Steve Chapman: Yeah, um as per all of my answers the immediate answer is I don't know because I don't I don't think it's a cognitive intentional thing but I could so I could tell you right now I feel a good balance that I have space and I have intentional things like this conversation and I can sort of look at my diary and think all right yeah It's a, it's a, it's a felt response and, but it can be, I mean, my own practices are, I mean, I've always got stuff to make art with.

If I'm finding things difficult, I make art about finding things difficult. I run [00:56:00] regularly and I find that really helps just clear stuff. If I've got a talk to write, the first thing I do is go for a run. By the time I've come back, I've got the structure of the talk. So there's a lot of, a lot of counterintuitive things like that, that work for me.

I think to bring structure to it and have a. Have a dedicated practice, just wouldn't work, wouldn't work for me. But yes, that constant, that constant scanning. I know when I'm doing well and I'm not doing well.

Track 1: Yeah.

Steve Chapman: And therapy, I've worked with my therapist for like six years. And I think that's, again, it's less now of a taboo of having a therapist.

Like you work with a therapist because you're broken. I think you work with a therapist because you want to get to know yourself. You don't have to have a particular thing to take. So that, that's part of my practice as well. Just uncovering these layers.

Track 1: Hmm.

The Sound of Silence: A Unique Podcast Experiment

Track 1: And Another crazy project that you did was

called the sound of silence Yeah. podcast where you [00:57:00] basically invited a guest

and you had like what hundred episode of this right where we invite a hundred people and in each episode you basically would just sit with

them not saying anything not saying a word

that's pretty weird tell me about this

Steve Chapman: yeah. That started, again, That started, with no, I had a bit more of an intention, but still I think an intention and an objective are something different. So my intention was, I wonder what would happen if I recorded a silent podcast. And it came from, most of these things the cat's different, it comes from noticing a pattern or a norm that's unchallenged and Coming up with a subversive way of just testing it.

So like the other projects, that came from a curious question. Where I think someone had sent me Some podcast about leadership or saying they said here's all you need to know about leadership, and I'm not anti podcast I mean, I like podcasts. I'm on one now But I started thinking that [00:58:00] everyone was just doing a podcast without much to say on it.

It was just like mainly ego driven and so I was running I can remember the exact woods where I was running when I came up with the idea, I thought, what would the opposite of a podcast be? Would it be nothing? Downloadable nothing? Yeah, what if you just downloaded Silence? Like John Cage's 4 minutes 33 record that recorded years ago.

And I thought, what would make it even weirder if it's not just Silence, but it's Silence recorded with someone? And what would make it even weirder is, what if they were like, well known people? Like celebrities and things like that? And I thought, that's a good, that's a good enough question for me. Um, I came up with a working title, Sound of Silence, which I never really liked.

But it ended up being the final title. I registered the domain soundofsilence. org. uk and then just said on social media, June this year I'm going to be hosting the world's first silent podcast featuring special guests. A hundred episodes, uh, featuring two minutes of silence every week. And it's sort of like those constraints.

And that's my leap then look, that's, [00:59:00] I've now announced it, it makes it more difficult to back off. And then I thought, oh fuck, a hundred weeks of a weekly podcast, that's like two years. That's a long time. And that was it, yeah. It was really difficult. I mean, the episodes were literally, I'd say, there were two phases to the project.

First one was the podcast, which was, I'd say, Welcome to Sound of Silence. Today's guest is Nirish. In Hello, you say hello, then we'd sit in silence for two minutes. And then at the end I say, thank you for joining me, Nirish. And you say, thank you. So it's a tiny little bit of speech to punctuate the silence.

Um, but it's really difficult to get people to go on a silent podcast because they think it's a gimmick or a joke. So I started off by asking people who were reasonably well known that I knew and they went on it. Um, and then when I had enough episodes it'd become a bit easier. My first big name was comedian Vic Reeves.

Jim Moyer, the artist, same person, [01:00:00] and I wrote to Jim's agent and they said, yeah, he's up for it. And he was like a comedy hero of mine when I was growing up, so I went all the way to his house and recorded silence. And then

he just

Track 1: so you did these in

Steve Chapman: yeah, all of them were in person. So again, I think, I think if you're going to have, again, this might sound contradictory to people that are interested in design, but Even in improvisation there's structure, but it's an enabling, what are the enabling constraints here?

Because if it's just, I'm just going to do a silent podcast, it's a bit like having a blank sheet of paper. Whereas the constraints that I built in up front, to give it a bit more oomph, were 100 episodes, all recorded face to face, centred around 2 minutes of silence. Because there was something around the face to face that, there's a philosophical bit, which is I'm recording the silence that arises between people in a physical space.

And also, it would be too easy, it felt, just to do it on Zoom and stuff like that. So they're all recorded face to face. I [01:01:00] spent a fortune on train travel. One episode I flew all the way to Berlin to record with someone that that

Track 1: for two

Steve Chapman: yeah, but they weren't they weren't in Berlin when I got there. They were in, and so it's, but it was, it was such an adventure, and the same with all of the projects, that there are moments where I, I hate them.

I hate it. I hate doing it. I'm thinking, why am I doing this? Particularly lockdown hit just as I was getting to the end of Sound of Silence. So I think there's 11 episodes left to go. I had, and always had about 7 queued up in advance. And then lockdown hit and it's just like, how am I going to do this? So I managed to still record a bit in lockdown when restrictions were lifted.

But for some of the weeks I couldn't put out an episode, I put out the best of. So it's like the best. Of 10 episodes of Silence. And some of them become the most listened to episodes. It's crazy. And again, people just, some people thought it was ridiculous. Um, some people hated it. I mean, some people were really annoyed with it.

Uh, but, [01:02:00] Some people get annoyed and just don't listen to it.

Track 1: Ha

Steve Chapman: But then lots of people listened to it. I think at it's peak it was like 15 to 20 thousand downloads.

Track 1: ha ha. Wow,

Steve Chapman: um, from around the world. But people would write and say, I love this podcast. It's about peace or it's about mental health or it's about loneliness or it's about

Track 1: So they were kind of making their own

Steve Chapman: Exactly. And that's, that's a really important thing that I learned from that project is in terms of my creative projects, it's can I create enough of a container that's empty for people to pour into it what they want. And so whatever people thought of the sound of silence is was right. Because it didn't have an intention.

It wasn't about anything. And that's what I love about art, and abstract art, is people will pour into it what they need to know. Really, an art gallery is just a hall of mirrors, where you go around and it reflects back parts of you that you're not seeing, or you're seeing.

Track 1: Wow. I

Steve Chapman: So, Sound of Silence, we've got to, yeah, 100 episodes. Um, [01:03:00] and what was good is another thing in my project, I always think projects should end well, at a peak, and end intentionally. This whole idea of you innovate before you hit a peak.

Track 1: Hmm.

Steve Chapman: like to kill projects before they hit a peak. So Sound of Silence, 100 episodes, lots of downloads. It would have been so easy to carry on going.

It's like, no, I'm going to stop. And

Track 1: The Simpsons. ha

Steve Chapman: exactly. It ends up, it ends up being, going a bit, meh.

Track 1: Just for the money. Ha ha, just for the views. Ha

ha.

Steve Chapman: And again, that was another thing, because I made no money from Sound of Silence. In fact, it cost me money. There wasn't that incentive to just keep going to make the money. And it's, yeah, the second phase of the project was I cut off the speech from both ends of the podcast and it's just an online gallery of silence now.

A hundred pictures of the guests. And it's just such a diverse mix of guests. And you just click on it and listen to the silence. Make of it what you want.

Track 1: [01:04:00] What were your key learnings from that project?

Steve Chapman: I think that start before you're ready. Again, if I'd thought that through. Stop before you're ready. Leap then look. If I'd thought that through too much I would never have done it because it's a stupid idea. Stupid idea. It's going to cost me time and money. I might not get any guests. So, I think again just going with that instinct.

If this is a question or something I want to explore that feels compelling enough, that it's going to have momentum. And there's so many ideas I have that will go nowhere. But that's one of the ones about that. Um, do something because you're fascinated by it. And it's just like, ah, I really want to meet David Shrigley.

So I invited him on the podcast and he said yes, and I went to meet him. So, and he's got a bit of my artwork in his studio now, and I've got some of his. So just do what you're fascinated by. And the other thing is, yeah, that difference between intention and objective. It's, [01:05:00] I mean, intention was, I wonder what would happen if I did a silent podcast, but I didn't really care where it got to.

Same with The Lost Cat. It's just, I wonder what would happen if I put these posters up. Or with some of the other projects that I've done.

Exploring Fascination and Curiosity

Track 1: think, um, one of the challenges that a lot of us face, especially, you know, when you're busy with work, let's say with family, with commitments, that it can be very difficult to even know what you're fascinated with, what you're curious about, because you're just so busy with the doing and making a living, paying the bills, looking after your family. What are some of the smallest things that people can do to start to discover or rediscover what fascinates them,

what they're curious about?

Steve Chapman: Yeah, that's a really good question Because that's one of the downsides to saying be fascinated. It's like what am I fascinated in and again is why um, [01:06:00] I like the title of Of your podcast because I think again, it's tuning back into our body. What brings a small moment of of Peace or harmony or excitement in our body.

What's something that you're You can immerse yourself in the type of thing that it changes our experience of time when we immerse ourselves in it. And it doesn't have to be

something that we'd universally regard as creative. I'm doing air quotes for those watching and listening to the podcast. Because, again, I think of creativity as a moment by moment experience of freedom of spontaneous self expression. And we

Track 1: you repeat that?

Steve Chapman: Yeah, well I might not be able to because it was improvised.

It's our moment by moment experience of our freedom of spontaneous self expression. That may come out in a painting that I'm doing. It may come out in an Excel spreadsheet I'm [01:07:00] fascinated by. It may come out in looking at leaves on the road. It may come out in someone that's an airline pilot and how they It doesn't The content is neither creative nor not, but it's what is that thing that utterly fascinates you and it can be, I think it could be a really simple thing.

But the key to this, I learned this from, I've heard many people say it, but I learned it from a mentor of mine called Keith Johnson, who's a theatre director. I did lots of improv training with him. He used to train us to go on stage and just be interested. He'd say, don't go on and try and be interesting, just go on and be interested.

Because interested people are interesting. And I take Keef's words further and it's like, fascinated people are fascinating. And, because I think there's a difference between interested and fascinated. Interested is like, yeah, I'm sort of interested in that. I'm interested in sharks, which I am, but I'm, I don't devote my entire life to studying sharks.

Whereas [01:08:00] something I'm fascinated by, it's like, there's no choice. I'm just fascinated by it. What's the things that you really have to, that you can't not do? And so with all of my work now, I've just been fascinated and Letting people see it, and some people find it fascinating. But that tuning into one small thing, I don't know, maybe it is just to reflect on what's noticing your body and your breathing and just your internal senses and your emotions, um, as you think of different things.

When was a moment when you were most aware of them or not? Also, I think time. Time standing still or time seemingly being different is a clue. To what's fascinating? I mean, we've been talking for a long time now. It doesn't feel like any time at all. I'm fascinated by this conversation if I was watching a webinar on I don't know.

I can't even think of a boring webinar, but there's loads out there It's like for half an hour drag.

Track 1: yeah,

Steve Chapman: So I think time is a good [01:09:00] good clue to that as

Nirish Shakya: hmm. The way I heard that was, um, Be aware of what makes you feel good inside and

what makes time just flow.

Steve Chapman: and it may not be the qualifier. I put on that is it may not even be good inside, but it does something that's Interesting. It may be like, Oh, that's really making my stomach feel like butterflies. And there's a sense of nervous excitement there because anxiety and anxiety and excitement somatically at least at the same thing, um, they obviously manifest in different ways.

So it'd just be noticing something. It's like you, you, you get moments like in a meeting, if you sit in meetings where someone will say something, it feels like the air in the room changes and your body temperature changes. It's like, Oh, something interesting has happened here. But yeah, just becoming curious about that, the smallest, the smallest thing.

Um,

but the main thing I would say is don't go looking [01:10:00] for it. I think if you go looking for what you're fascinated, you try too hard and it becomes like work. So just remain But how do you find something without going

Track 1: to look for

it?

Steve Chapman: it's remaining open to it. This idea of quantum flirting, of hearing it, allowing it to call. And I'll often do that with coaching clients.

Like they'll have a really difficult question that I don't particularly understand and we'll just. I'll just invite them to, let's go for a walk somewhere, let's do something, like, with no intention, then just be open to something might call to you in this moment. But don't go looking for it. And then things like, I remember once just walking past a bookshop, and the guys were just going, Ah, shit!

And you run over to the window, he's pointing there, because that's it, that's it. I've no idea what was going on for him. But something made sense to him. So it's counterintuitive, isn't it? It's like, and I think a lot of the keys to, The mysteries of being human sit in paradox and things that don't make sense and cause dissonance.

We try to resolve them because it doesn't feel good for [01:11:00] us. But yeah, I think that's how you find something without looking for it. That's a good, that's a good Zen koan, maybe, isn't it? How do you find something without looking for it?

Track 1: Yeah, this kind of, Yeah.

reminds me of Taoism, like I was recently reading a book, The Tao of Pu, and there was a lot of kind of things I absolutely found fascinating in terms of how Pu lives

and does and bes, which is about, yeah, just letting things happen around you without trying to force

yourself into

Steve Chapman: Yeah.

Track 1: um. And that, that is, you know, one of my themes for the year, which is to just play with that purpose and

to have more faith in the universe that you will be

safe And okay in the

end.

Steve Chapman: Yeah. And I think the really important thing in all of that is don't fear being a contradiction. It's like, I'm saying I'm open to all of this, but then when I get really short on money I might start panicking, or I do start panicking, [01:12:00] and do something else. And it's like, ah, but Steve, you said that, yeah, I'm a contradiction.

Human beings are contradictions. There's one of the existential philosophers that I like, he's had a quote that said, Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds. And we're so obsessed with consistency. Being consistent, be a contradiction, it's much more fun. But be aware of it, yeah? I think that's the thing.

Track 1: I love that. So, see, I'm just conscious of the time. Um, another thing that I had on my list was the masks workshop. Do you think we have time to kind of

talk about that or shall we start to wrap up

Steve Chapman: Um, now we can talk about that briefly, because I think that is probably a good way of talking about practical ways in which people can free up. So yeah, let's, let's talk about that.

Track 1: Okay.

The Transformative Power of Mask Workshops

Track 1: So Steve, the another thing that actually I'm super fascinated about about you is this thing that you run called the masks workshop where you gather people [01:13:00] and you hand them over some masks that they put on. Um, I haven't been able to attend one of these workshop, but I've been super fascinated by this.

Tell me about these

Steve Chapman: Yeah, the mask workshops are my absolute favorite workshops to run. And I do them less frequently because they're just exhausting and mind blowing. But I learned, I learned masks originally from Keith Johnson, who I mentioned earlier. And he, he, like, just brought some masks out at one of the workshops I was at with him.

And the way he works is you put on the mask, you look in the mirror, and you allow spontaneous stuff to come out. But the moment Keith thinks you're thinking, and not just allowing it to be spontaneous, he says, take it off. So I didn't want to do it, I tried it, and I hated it, and I thought I got it wrong, and I wore the mask for about five seconds.

And I thought, I'm never going back to that. But again, it was that thing of like, oh no, but there's something there. It's like, I always think it's like eating food that's too spicy. Afterwards you go, I'm not [01:14:00] eating that again, and then a week later you're eating it again. So I just become compelled by masks, um, trained with lots of different people, and just come up with my own way of working with them.

So the workshop, really the mask is a pattern interrupt. And that's what I'm interested in all of my work, like, the projects we've spoken about, my artwork, is being a way to invite people, at least to interrupt habitual patterns, to allow people to question. How does it have to be like this? And the mask does that for a really important pattern which is our sense of self and our sense of identity.

So at a mask workshop, there's one this Friday, Um, there's only ten people at them to keep them intimate and to give people enough time. I will work in a similar way that Keith Johnson did with getting people to experience themselves as different using the mask and the mirror. And allowing characters to arise from the body.

It's really difficult to explain without doing it, but the masks, the [01:15:00] masks on your face will look nothing like they are on the table. It's just a freaky thing into working this way that you suddenly you don't recognize yourself. In a way that you'd never have expected. And then, like, different voices might come out, or different forms of expression.

And the way that I work with people, I'm spotting what the mask is doing, or what the person's doing, and I'm feeding stuff back to try and develop it further. And it's amazing, it's like, uh, people will, people that can't do public speaking, will do a three minute, eloquent, thoughtless, without any ums and ahs, improvised talk. Or

Track 1: that happen?

Steve Chapman: I don't know, um, people that can't sing would, would sing and find a voice. I'm not saying that they're suddenly an operatic tenor or people that can't dance. People that, uh,

Track 1: feel more free

Steve Chapman: it's, yeah, it's something like that and it's not, I don't think it's the anonymity of the mask. It just, a [01:16:00] therapist friend of mine came on my mask workshops and he says it allows us to access repressed or unowned parts of our personality.

And it's just all of these parts of us that at some point we've discarded as this isn't of value, or this isn't good enough, or this is embarrassing. And it's, it's amazing that people just experience themselves different. And one of the core things in Gestalt is, in Gestalt we just work with awareness.

Deepening awareness to recover choice. So, noticing the body, the mind, all of that. And at the heart of Gestalt is a thing, um, from Arnie Beisser called the paradoxical theory of change. And that says we get more change by becoming more deeply aware of who we already are rather than striving to be something we're not.

That's the opposite of most ways we think about personal development. And I think what the mask does is it deepens an awareness of these, this thing we already are that we didn't even know. And that awareness is enough to like start to recover some choice. And. [01:17:00] Yeah, it's, it's mind blowing every time I, I can't prepare for a mask workshop, have them make sure the masks are clean, get them to the room, get the room set up because I don't know what's going to happen.

But it's, it is, it's like an unfreezing or a melting of, of personality. And I think that's a similar thing. You don't have to, it's an extreme version, but you don't have to have a mask to do that. It's like some of the things we was talking about earlier, like if you, uh, Wanted to go and do a photo shoot now, what would happen if you found a hat and maybe some different shoes that you'd never normally wear and go out and think, right, I'm going to take photographs as this, this person, you don't necessarily need a mask.

It's ways of short circuiting, I guess our, our idealized self images that we can't be these things.

Track 1: So essentially you're kind of, um, using these, um,

external tools. To reframe some of our belief systems

And [01:18:00] perspectives.

Steve Chapman: Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's. I'm doing it without it being attached to anything in particular. So it's the individual wearing it is doing the, the reframing without even knowing they're doing the reframing. I guess it's not the same, but it's why some people are comfortable or uncomfortable with fancy dress parties.

Track 1: Hmm. you can get the really flamboyant people that love fancy dress parties and the people that hate it. But what's the fascinating one is someone that's normally a certain way and they go to a fancy dress party. Donald Trump or Julian Clary or someone and then suddenly this other part of the personality is coming out.

Steve Chapman: And I think just, it just gives us that range, a broader range of ourselves to work with then. Um, even like people that feel that they're not assertive enough will practice, like allow, be more assertive in a mask. Or people that often don't express anger might express lots of anger for a mask and it's like quite cathartic.

Track 1: Does it

depend on what masks they're wearing? Like if there's like a mask of an angry character, [01:19:00]

it brings out more anger? Wow.

Steve Chapman: sort of none of them. All of the masks I've seen be totally different. I don't have any with me here at the moment. Um, but I've seen on the table, all the masks look similar ish. They all look very masculine cause they don't have hair and stuff like that. But I've seen, I could pick up one mask and it's been, um, it's been male, female or no gender at all.

It's been angry. It's been old. It's been young. It's been a little girl. Or an old man. Also skin tone. Which is why I make a lot of the masks myself. Because I can get a real variety of skin tone. It sort of all merges. And quite often in a mask workshop I'll be sitting there watching the person in the mask And I'll be thinking, I have no idea who this is.

And you get weird things like You suddenly see the eyebrows Or the cheeks flush on the mask. And of course they can't because it's plastic. But the, the It's the combination of the The mask and the human wearing it and their body that creates an utterly [01:20:00] unique character. And that's why I try and make the masks not too leading.

Some of the early ones I made were like, I'll try and make this person look angry. But even with that, different things come out. And you have 10 people at the workshop, but really you have 70 participants by the end of it because they've all bought different things.

Track 1: There's like all these permutations And culminations

characters that come

out.

Steve Chapman: And it's amazing, I often do improvised TED Talks at the mask workshop, where we'll all come up with a stupid title of a TED Talk, they'll go in a hat, and someone will walk on stage in the mask, and as they walk on stage, I will announce the title of the talk, and they just do these amazing improvised talks for three minutes.

People at the start of the day were saying, oh I can't improvise, I can't speak, I can't do that, and it's, well, you can, can't you? And it just, it's a fascinating thing. It's like, so what was it about that? The mask isn't magic. What was it about that that gave me permission to express myself in that way?

And having known that I can do it with a mask, [01:21:00] then I can do it any time. So the question then becomes, it's not that I can do that, it's where am I inhibited? Back to that intrinsic, extrinsic freedom.

Track 1: Hmm.

Steve Chapman: But you see, they're, they're they're not for everyone, the workshops. I quite often get invited to do them in the corporate world, like as a leadership development program.

Um, and. I have to say no because it's like you can't do like module one is accounting module two is strategy module three is gonna fuck with your mind with masks module four it's got it's got to be something that you're interested in and you feel resourced to do but yeah it's really amazing powerful

Track 1: attends these

workshops

then?

Steve Chapman: it's i mean it's a real mix of people lots i've got a bias because i teach on the coaching masters at ashridge so i get a bias of coaches and consultants um I've had artists, teachers, um, I try and keep them as cheap as possible so that anyone can access them, um, therapists, I mean anyone really, [01:22:00] so it's a, it's a mix, but it tends to be people mainly in the field of creativity, innovation, or self development, or a helping profession.

Track 1: Hmm.

Steve Chapman: But, yeah, anyone, anyone can be

Track 1: it kind of reminds me a bit of, um, you know, uh, Edward

de Bono's, um, Six Thinking Hats. How, like, you know, putting on a different hat might help you bring out a different

aspect of how you

think.

Steve Chapman: exactly, and I mean that's Mask work is an extreme version of that. And it's just like, if if we sat differently here and like, breathed differently, we're going to have a different type of conversation. Maybe different questions would come out. So it's, I think we play on such a tiny range of ourselves.

Um, We've put on such a tiny range of our cognition, let alone everything else that's going on. Our bodies and our sensations and all of that. So that's, that's my interest in the mask work. But for [01:23:00] me as a facilitator, it's so intense that I just need to sort of lay down for the weekend after it. Because it's, it's so funny, but also so intense.

Because I'm, I'm coaching and facilitating this, this thing that doesn't know what it is. And it's, yeah.

Track 1: Yeah. Yeah. yeah.

So you, you have, um, one

coming up, um, in May, Friday the 17th, 2024. It's from 10am to 5. 30pm in the

Umbrella Rooms

Steve Chapman: That's in

Shaftesbury Avenue. Yeah.

Track 1: Nice. So we'll put the details for that workshop in the show notes and also the YouTube description as well. So if you're interested in attending this workshop with Steve, please do check it out. I would highly recommend it. And Yeah. if I can make it, I'll be, I'll

be there as well. I'll try to be there.

Steve Chapman: Yeah. Thank you.

Track 1: Um, so Steve, what's something that you.

Reflections and Final Thoughts

Track 1: believed about yourself or you thought was true by yourself? [01:24:00] Um, Has now changed in the last, let's say two years or two to five years.

Steve Chapman: I think it's, uh, the thing that I've been talking about all along, but maybe more so in the last five years, is I'm not broken. The way in which I think and I see the world and I engage isn't wrong or abnormal or Yeah, I think it's that so it's switching to the positive of why don't I embrace that rather than think?

Oh, this is something to be fixed or to paper over I think that feels like a really important and really important shift for me.

Track 1: Love that. Now I'm gonna get you to scale that up a bit. And again, same question. What's something that you believe was true about the world or the [01:25:00] systems that you operate in that has changed

in the past two to five years

Steve Chapman: I've done about two to five years But I think no, but even no, but

I think it's the same thing. But in the last two to five years, it's exponentially, um grown is there are no answers There are no answers, there is no solution, there is no thing, there is like, we engage with the world and lives like, there is an answer there but I can't quite find it yet but if I just do this, and that relaxing into, there is no answer, there is only your moment by moment experience, and, yeah, this is why I'm big into existential philosophy, I think that's changed even more, I'm much more comfortable, or much less uncomfortable.

Knowing there's no answers. It's never easy. It just becomes a familiar discomfort

Track 1: Hmm.

Steve Chapman: attached. Maybe definitely less attached.

Track 1: Yeah. Nice. And now let's imagine that it's your last day on earth, [01:26:00] and you're on your death bed, and someone comes up to you with a tiny post it and a sharpie, and um, says, Steve, could you please write your last few words for the world, or for humanity? What would you write on the tiny post it?

Steve Chapman: I Think I just write down I don't know and that Could you elaborate?

yeah, I think that would be it It's and maybe a smiley face because I think people would read it as I don't know is a problematic thing It's just that acceptance, I guess I don't know what all of that was about. I don't know what's next. I don't even know what this moment is.

Um, and that's sort of what it's all about. I think they'd be really confused by it. I mean, hopefully if I drew a smiley face on it, it would sell for a lot of money. So, whoever inherits my vast fortune, [01:27:00] um, would get that. Yeah, I think, I think that's, that would be a nice counterintuitive thing. And then, I like that because it would make people wonder.

What did he mean? I don't know, what did he mean? But then that would be the point. I don't want to provoke curiosity.

Track 1: Nice, I mean, I usually try to summarize my key takeaways from my conversation with guests, but I'm not sure if I should at this time because I don't want to bias the interpretation of whoever is listening right now. So I'm probably going to leave it for this time and let people interpret this

conversation in whatever way they, you know, feel necessary for them. But Steve, thank you so much for joining us. How can people get in touch with you or follow you online or attend one of your [01:28:00] workshops

if they would like to?

Can fascinating moments that I don't know where the time has gone. And it looks like it's getting dark, so it's like, it's obviously been a long amount of time. Find me on social media, mainly Instagram, but I'm on the other ones, at stevexoh.

Steve Chapman: And on my Instagram, there's a link that goes through to everything else. And the best website would be cannedscorpionsmoke. com It's all one word, canned scorpion smoke.

Track 1: scorpions smoke?

Can they?

Steve Chapman: That's a different question. But people can research that as well. There's a whole story behind where that came from. Maybe for a future episode. But yeah, on that there's a link to artwork, there's a link to my shop, there's a link to workshops. Some stuff that I wrote and all sorts of stuff. Someone described my website as, it's like going to Ikea.

You don't find what you're looking for but you leave with a load of stuff you didn't know you needed.

Track 1: I love that.

Steve Chapman: And people always comment on the branding [01:29:00] of the website. I mean, it's just a load of stuff that I cobbled together. It really, yeah, it sort of models that way. But yeah, that'd be the two ways to, to get in touch.

Track 1: Amazing. Great stuff. Thank you so much, Steve. And, um, we will hopefully see you again soon on design feeling. Uh, if not, we'll, um, we'll try to catch up over a beer

soon. And, um, yeah, have a great day and speak soon.

Steve Chapman: Thank you. Bye.

Outro

Nirish Shakya: So, what did you think of the conversation?

What's the 1 thing that stood out to you?

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