Unlocking your unique identity within liminal spaces with Tutti Taygerly

Tutti Taygerley: [00:00:00] Especially if you feel that you put your heart and soul and everything into your work and then, boom, they just laid you off, What's the point? What's the meaning in this?

And I would argue the more strongly rooted you were In a system, in a foundation, whether it's a system where you your mental model is, My work is my identity. I would say probably the harder it is to figure out how to recover? What happens after?

Nirish Shakya: This is my conversation with Tutti Tagerly. Tutti is a leadership coach who's led design at companies such as Meta and Disney. She coaches co founders and tech leaders To embrace their uniqueness rather than hide it away. She's also the author of the book Make Space to Lead.

Tutti Taygerley: Where I do believe that true fulfillment and, a true sense of satisfaction lies is knowing what Your unique [00:01:00] place in the system is. What are you doing that nobody else can do exactly like this?

Nirish Shakya: We talk about how identity can get tangled up in the systems that we're part of and what happens when those systems shift or we get expelled from that system. Stick around to hear Tutti's best advice on how to find and celebrate your unique self In the messiness of life and work.

Tutti Taygerly, welcome to Design Feeling. How have you been?

Tutti Taygerley: Thanks so much. Feeling excited this morning.

Nirish Shakya: How are things, um, down in San Francisco 

Tutti Taygerley: things are good. There's some sunshine coming out, and I have a lot of energy, surprisingly. I've, uh, gone through some down periods through the end of the year, and now The facts are the same.

The facts and circumstances are the [00:02:00] same, but somehow I have a lot more energy and a lot more creativity In this period right now.

Nirish Shakya: Where do you get your energy and creativity from?

Tutti Taygerley: Really good question. You know, to be honest, sometimes you don't even know at each Particular moment. It's hard to tell where it comes from. Um, the systems that I have found to work in the past are On a couple of different a couple of different levels.

1 is physical, really. Standing up, making sure I get outside, just Getting movement, that gives me a lot of energy. That'll reset me instantly.

Nirish Shakya: So just just FYI, um, both Toody and I are standing right now as we're recording this

Tutti Taygerley: Yep. Yep.

So I'll give you a framework for getting energy Since we have, uh, [00:03:00] designers here. So the first is the physical, which is kind of movement, but also rest and sleeping. Um, I've actually been really surprised. I've had a ton of creative energy this last week, and I'm also sleeping. So I will keep on going until I feel that I'm Hired.

Um, this is so strange. I was just speaking about this with my therapist. This has never happened to me before. I'm able to nap, Lie down, rest, and in 20 minutes, get up and, um, continue continue writing. It's been a very strange period that I think has been Probably based on years of years of energy work and energy management.

So framework, the first 1 was physical. The second is really,

Nirish Shakya: uh, 

Tutti Taygerley: uh, emotional. It's what's happening in in my system, So what's happening with the 2 teen girls I parent, which is the the extremely unpredictable chaos of [00:04:00] that system, Um, what's happening in kind of the greater the greater ecosystem of the the clients I serve, just the business that I run. But What helps my energy is maintaining my feeling through my feelings through this. Maintaining just some level of stability, which For me, helps with like, meditation helps, exercise helps.

And then the bigger part, which, you know, framework might be breaking down a little bit, but The third part of it is, um, I guess, like, feeling is more spiritual, and then the the other part of it is the thinking. So we'll go with physical thinking and Spiritual or feeling. The thinking being, I have been a workaholic for a lot of my life. I love the work I do. Loved it when I was a designer.

I love it when I'm coaching. I love it when I'm writing or making things. Sometimes the work is a distraction because busyness doing these things is could be a distraction. [00:05:00] And in other times, it's a great thing that gives me energy. So it can be it can be both. That was a long answer, 

Nirish Shakya: hey, uh, we 

Tutti Taygerley: like talking about 

Nirish Shakya: answers here. Um, I remember, like, the first time I I saw your profile, the first thing that came to mind was, man, she's a hustler. You've got, like, you've done so much, you

know. 

Tutti Taygerley: not not wrong.

Nirish Shakya: You know, you've done so 

much 

Tutti Taygerley: I say? 

Nirish Shakya: much. But at the same time, you've also written a book, um, called, you know, Making Space to lead, which is, um, again, making space within that the the hustle, the the the busyness. What made you write that book?

Tutti Taygerley: So I will talk a little bit about the hustle and then the anti hustle. I had a I had a tiger mom growing up. I'm sure many [00:06:00] people of Asian or maybe Jewish or maybe immigrant descent Can, uh, can relate to

Nirish Shakya: relate. 

Tutti Taygerley: Yeah. And, really, she taught me that My worth is based on what I do. If I came home with an a minus, it would be, what is that minus? It was, um, how she grew up. It was her system. It was her framework of love that was what she knew. And she was basing A lot of her hopes and dreams on on her kids. She wasn't she wasn't able to continue her career after she got married to my dad, and could see a lot of those unfulfilled dreams being channeled into my sister and me.

Thank thank god I wasn't an only child. It got diffuse a little bit. And so that was in my DNA. Hustling was in my DNA. It's what you do, and, you know, I did that.

I was High school valedictorian. I went to Stanford. I graduated, got a great job in [00:07:00] Silicon Valley, just rose up that ladder. And at the same time, it wasn't just work hustling. It was like, this is the path you're supposed to take.

These are the things you're supposed to do. Dated my, um, college boyfriend, got married to him, uh, got pregnant, 2 kids, bought a house in San Francisco. So isn't this the dream? Yep. I I love design.

I, you know, I've worked in so many types of different, um, Design companies in different leadership positions, but I've also worked as as general manager because I got shiny object syndrome. I like trying new things. But all of it through the core of it was always, like, the hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle. And that was I mean, I liked my job, and my identity was in my job and the validation of it. Yet at the same time as as you know, you can't always design on a [00:08:00] deadline.

You can't always Produce by hustling and working harder and doing that. You there is a magic in The spaciousness, the generative process, the gestation time of simply letting an idea sit. And maybe when you're in the shower or when I'm out surfing, it's just gonna pop. And I knew that from trusting the process of design, but I never applied it to my life. So I had a midlife crisis.

I had the most hellish year of my life, maybe about 5 years ago, when My father-in-law passed, and I've known him since I was 18. Um, my marriage fell apart, and I had 2 school age kids, and then my own father passed. And so it was hellish year. And, uh, in in tragedy, in these in these Crisises comes reflection, growth, learning. So what I ended up doing in the wake of that year was leaving [00:09:00] A 22 year corporate career and starting out on my own.

I had an inkling that I loved coaching. I loved working with people, I wanted to do more of it, and that was something that I did in that year. And so in a way, to answer your question, Make space to lead is a little bit memoir ish in that it talks about my experiences with hustle culture, with Says with climbing that corporate ladder with my corporate with my tiger mom. And it talks about how that's not Ever going to be enough? How it wasn't enough for me?

And it is really through, if you will, the feeling and not the Thinking or the doing, just this this notion of the white space all around the events of our day, the emotions, It's only when I made space for that and spent time doing that was I able to step away and redefine and recreate a new career where [00:10:00] I I work for myself. I'm a executive coach. I'm a keynote speaker, a writer, and, really, it helps me come back to some of my roots. I had been an English major for a long time, and I love writing. But I put that to the side because, yeah, sure, I might be writing some Specs and some PRDs and writing some keynote slides, but it it it wasn't a thing.

And The the month that I left, uh, my my last full time job at at Facebook at Meta, I made a vow that I was gonna write every week. I was gonna write and publish a blog post every week, um, and it was what I was learning. The first 1 was, you know, How I left the corporate world and embraced the unknown. And I think I did this for about 18 months every single week and it chronicles how I started a coaching certification program, the things that I was learning, what I was learning from my clients. And, eventually, [00:11:00] after about 18 18 months of this or so, I'm like, oh, I can feel another calling.

I feel the call to put all of this into into a book. I mean, as designers, we love physical artifacts. Right? This was a This was a fun artifact to be able to work with the crew that I wanted for the cover design to put, like, my heart and soul into it. And it's a very personal book.

It's and in some way, it's a coaching business card because it chronicles my journey leaving, My journey into the anti hustle. And it also chronicles, um, how I coach people. It walks through exercises for okay. How do you find this part of you that maybe has imposter syndrome that is Self critical and holding yourself back. How do you dream bigger?

How do you create a community around you to help you learn and grow? All the kinda traditional Coaching self transformation topics. So in a way, it's also [00:12:00] a business card for what I do.

Nirish Shakya: I mean, there is so much resonance for me there and so much I wanna unpack.

Um, I think first first thing I wanna, you know, I definitely relate to is, you know, having been brought up in that, um, Asian upbringing where your self worth is determined by your grades, um, still stays with me even till today. Um, and it's it's really difficult to let go of that conditioning where you're constantly on this ladder of achievement, you're, you know, once you get to the first rung, the second rung, and the third, and so on, it just keeps going. And I think 1 of the things that I said in 1 of my recent episodes is that, I have always treated my life as a mountain. And, you know, being especially being born in Nepal, you know, just mountains 

[00:13:00] everywhere. Um, and for for me, like, mountain was a metaphor of life in terms of, okay, it's something that I need to climb and work hard towards and, you know, put in the effort.

It was not meant to be 

fun because if you're having fun, you're not really working hard. You know, those those kind of, like, mentalities, which I'm sure, like, you can relate to as well. Uh, it was only recently, maybe like last year, I was like, man, that's such a a shit way to live life. You know, like, um, you know, life is not just just mountains, you know, it's valleys and rivers and forests and deserts. Um, and so often in our drive to climb the mountain, we we, you know, we don't take notice of these other aspects of life that we might not think is will get us to our version of success.

Right? So,

Tutti Taygerley: Mhmm.

Nirish Shakya: Tootie, what what is success to you? Well, you know, maybe what was [00:14:00] success to you, you know, previously and what is success to you now?

Tutti Taygerley: Have we used your mountain analogy? I don't think there's anything wrong with wanting to climb mountains. Success to a lot of people in throughout humanity was summiting Mount Everest. And I think that is absolutely fantastic and worthwhile and a big, big goal. And for me, throughout my school days, my college years, my early career, Success was climbing that ladder. I mean, the first inkling of success was, okay. I have a bunch of jobs.

I'm gonna pick this most Stable job because as an immigrant, I needed an h 1 b visa. Yeah. So my heart goes out to all the layoffs happening right now to tech workers [00:15:00] in In the US, when they're not just losing their job, they might be losing their home and stability because you got whatever it is, 30, 60 days to find another job. So that was the first version of success for me. What is the stability that's gonna let me give me the freedom to work where I wanna work? The next parts of it were all the external trappings and validation that we all want. Success was, oh, I wanna be a manager. That's the next rung. Success was, oh, I've been working at this SaaS b 2 b companies. I wanna work on consumer work.

It's shiny. Success was oh, I've been working inside companies. I wanna know what it is to work for a design firm and to work for All of these brands because I've been working on this 1 project for 2 years. I want variety, and success was always as well. Am I rising up in title?

[00:16:00] And am I rising up in money? Am I rising up in all these external trappings? And guess what? There is nothing wrong with that. That's what I wanna say to all the listeners.

We're all humans. We all need validation, and that's okay. I think that When that may become less okay, when that version of success may become less okay, is when you start feeling, Is this it? Is this enough? Like, I'm supposedly gaining success, but why do I not feel good? I'm going to bastardize Stephen Covey's, um, quote because it's about ladders, but, you know, we're going with mountains here. What if you find, like, you've been climbing all these mountains, climbing on these mountains, and you're at the top of Mount Everest, and you put down that flag that's like, I am here, and you take that I'll see you're like, look at me. I'm on top [00:17:00] of the world. What happens wake up the next day, what's the feeling that you feel? Is it like, Oh my gosh.

I am so grateful. This is wonderful. This wave of contentment and fulfillment, Or is it what's the next thing? What's the next milestone? What's the next goal post?

What's the wait. Nothing's taller than Everest. My my analogy is Failing. What is it like to, like, pioneer space travel so that I'm gonna put the first Humans to live on the moon because Everest wasn't enough. I need the next 

thing. 

Nirish Shakya: It's like, what's next?

Right? You don't even stop to celebrate a lot of the time. You just move on to the

Tutti Taygerley: but this is where I think this is really interesting because everything that I've been talking about about SaaS is extrinsic, which is [00:18:00] useful and helpful and valuable, but it's not enough. It's so I think the answer is both. Success is the balance of the Trinsic and intrinsic, and that's what I look at now. Of course, there's still goals that I want to reach. These goals are, You know, amazing.

I have a revenue goal of 1.5 x ing my the revenue from my business this year. And it's not purely a revenue goal, but it's a goal to say, like, am I producing the services and value That clients actually want to pay for as a monetary thing. But, um, that goal and that vision of Success for this year come comes with a counter goal, comes with a counter metric, which is on working half the hours that I worked last year. And this is super personal for me. I have a lot of things going on with my family, with my teen daughters where it's, [00:19:00] like, very focusing.

Like a design constraint, This is my top priority. I have a design constraint. And so it's gonna be I'm working half the hours, and I want a 1.5 x my income. That's the external. But the internal stuff is I wanna have energy. I wanna be creative. I wanna feel like I have a lot of capacity, and I want a richness in every single relationship I have. 1 of my, um, I don't think I've ever said this out loud before, it is a marker of success. And it's a little embarrassing, but Every single person I interact with, I wanna leave them Better off from that interaction. Yeah.

And that's pretty straightforward with my clients, but, I mean, it's the same thing with, like, the coffee shop barista with, you know so when I say hi to in the water when I'm surfing. [00:20:00] And, Yeah. That that's a marker of success to me, and these are all things that ultimately make me feel good. And I think when We're all looking success for success. We're looking to feel good.

And we don't know that the external stuff is what we're taught And conditioned makes us feel good. But look, the world's chaotic. People will take that away in a heartbeat. You change jobs. You have an asshole boss.

You know? You get laid off. Poof. It's gone. The stuff the the success you can never have anyone take away from you is the intrinsic Yeah.

And so it's both.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Wow. And and, you know, that that is so close and and topical to what's what's been happening in the industry, you know, this year, last year with all the, you know, the economic upheavals and layoffs and there there is, you know, so much and people are starting this year with a lot of, um, uncertainty and that lack of sense of, you know, [00:21:00] stable ground and and safety. And, um, and I I know a lot of my friends who have started the year with this sense of this orientation is like, where am I? Where am I?

What's what's happening? Like, you know, and you see everyone else around you, like, you know, making goals and setting resolutions and whatnot, and you're like, I'm just trying to make sense of what's going on here. I'm just trying to survive, not thrive. Yeah, what advice would you have, you know, for those people who are, again, trying to get back, regain their sense of orientation and the sense of, you know, stability.

Tutti Taygerley: I think that we all have periods in our life where different things matter to us. This this notion of striving, Earning the grade, earning external validation, that's how our system is set up in school and in in university. [00:22:00] And I would say it's actually a good thing. It teaches some some level of skill, some level of having to conform to Some level of learning, some level of knowing that some teachers are fair, some teachers are unfair.

Um, and then often, I'd say, like, in the next Period of of life. You might be at your first job. And I would say in your twenties, If it matches to a lot of high achievers, professionals, designers who may be on the audience of this, you know, if you're on a traditional path, Let's say you went to university. Let's say you did well in it. Then you're able to devote a lot of your time and energy to your profession because there's nothing else maybe drawing on your energy and the things that you need. And that's an era, like, an era of your life that you might not have as many beautiful [00:23:00] costume changes as some other eras. And similarly, where you are right now, if you're feeling some level of adriftness, ungroundedness, this is another transition, another era of your life. It's a it's a liminal space, if if you will. And I think a lot of it is still happening, um, in our collective reaction to the liminal space of COVID and the pandemic and trying to be like, okay.

What happens next? And I would argue the more strongly rooted you were In a system, in a foundation, whether it's a system where you your mental model is, my work is my identity, my work is making impact in the world through design to make the world a better place for this audience and these people, the more strongly rooted you are in that, I would say probably the harder it [00:24:00] is to figure out how to recover? What happens after?

Especially if you feel that you put your heart and soul and everything into your work and then, boom, they just laid you off? What's the point? What's the meaning in this? The thing that I've seen and, you know, I've worked I coached Probably a a number of people through this period where we were pretty much anticipating a layoff. And A lot of what we looked at together was, alright.

What's your goal? Not to the level of, My goal is to get a greatly exceeds on my next performance review and get some money, some promotions, some next title. And these are all valid goals. So I'm not I don't mean to patronize them. But the more deeper beneath it, which is like, okay.

This is good. You want that. To what end? And this and when you keep diving [00:25:00] deeper and asking to what end? Why?

Why? Why? You can do the 5 whys deep. Go deeper to what purpose. This is where some universal stuff emerges.

And it's so universal Then when you actually say it or recognize it, like, when I do it, I'm like, oh my fucking god. That is so cheesy. Is that what I really want? Freedom. Really?

That's my goal. Freedom. So cheesy. Right? But it's there because it's universal.

And I'm using that as an example because in this era of of working, I coach so many people who want freedom, Who want a way out of being beholden to say a corporate overlord, whether it's moving from working from a large Company to founding your own startup, whether it's, you know, leaving this world and making your living as an illustrator. Whether it's yeah. I talk to a lot of people who wanna become coaches, who are like, how do we do that? Because [00:26:00]there's a natural overlap between, like, the empathy and people creating. I'm totally rambling from your question now, but I think it was, what do you tell these people when they're in the state of despair?

It's like it's it's a liminal space. You might have been very, very tied to something before. And, look, it sucks when the rug is pulled out under you and you're seeking and you're requesting and you're looking, but that's alright. Like, it's the questions that matter So much more than the answers, and maybe you haven't spent that time asking the questions. So, you know, do it.

Take the space. And 1 other thing that I'm gonna say, and I will say it unapologetically, which is that if you're A listener to this podcast, there is a good chance that you and we are all massively entitled. It's not like we're likely to be homeless [00:27:00] tomorrow. Yeah. We have been In a tech bubble and in a design bubble.

And look. I don't wanna minimize the loss of a job because that's huge or the loss of meaning because that's huge. But if we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, if you have the home, if you have the food, if you have the loved ones, You'll figure it out. Of course, you will. Trust the process.

It's like designing. This is the messy, messy, messy, messy middle right Right now, trust the process. Keep asking the questions. You'll figure it out, and you'll be more fulfilled when you get to the other side.

Nirish Shakya: love that.

I love how that kind of, you know, it gives people a sense of perspective that's and it comes back to, like, you know, the this having the sense of gratitude for the things that you already have and you already have a lot more than, you know, the average human population on on Earth. And, uh, I love, um, I kinda [00:28:00] when I was when you're, you know, speaking there, I'm kind of getting this visual of this plants being uprooted, you know, plant that has dug its roots, like, really deep on this ground and now they've been uprooted and, yeah, that that that is going to be, um, you know, there's gonna be a lot of discomfort there for for the plan to be uprooted. And I guess our first, um, goal in that instance is how do I make, you know, make myself, you know, you know, re reroute myself again. Um, but like you said, I think taking the time to use the the privilege that you have, the the entitlement that you already have to create that space for you rather than trying to rush into, um, into this urgency of rerouting yourself, um, for like personally, for me that's been really beneficial exercise, [00:29:00] uh, because you just come out of it with such greater level of self awareness as to what really matters to you.

A lot of times, you you know, for example, I I realized that job titles don't matter to me anymore. You know, there was there was a time when I was chasing job titles, for example, from a junior to a senior to a lead to a principal and the list goes on. And I'm like, what's what's the point of all these job titles when I'm not even doing the work that actually matters to me, that actually brings me the meaning that I seek? And it was only when I was able to create some space out of that daily routine. I was like, I could see things that I didn't see before.

Um, and I think, yeah, I definitely agree with in terms of embracing having the courage to embrace that liminality, the liminal space that happens in between in in these transitionary periods in our life, uh, which we know we we all go [00:30:00] through.

Tutti Taygerley: have a tool that I can, uh, recommend for people who are going through this. I'm, um, I'm a witch, so I work a lot with cards, and I don't believe that, um, I don't believe that tarot cards are a way of dividing the future like Cassandra, it's a design tool. It can open and widen your perspective. I have a card set called Postcards from the liminal

space. And if you're ever taking yourself Too seriously.

If you want some help through, like, the liminal space, you can always just Shuffle the cards and, you know, see what's the message that's coming out right now. And, like, the 1 that I pulled out is basically The veil is thin. So maybe that could mean if you're questioning, you'd be like, maybe I'm [00:31:00] close to that border between Thinking all the time and reaching into feeling. Maybe I'm close to the answer. Maybe I'm close to, like, Finding and feeling and knowing something different because the veil is thin.

And if I keep doing this, if I trust the process, maybe it'll happen. So it's a tool. It's a tool to help you embrace the liminal space. I recommend it if someone's looking for tools because Tools help us get through and make sense of the world. So postcards from the liminal

Nirish Shakya: I I am a big con you know, convert when they when it comes to tarot cards. Um, um, 1 of my previous guests, doctor Adeola Anibokhan, um, she was a guest on my podcast a couple of years ago and she, you know, does, you know, tarot reading as a designer. And that really opened my mind to how having these, um, external prompts can really trigger these internal, like, in subconscious associations in the brain. And and it's not about things like predicting [00:32:00] the future or anything like that, but it's about, yeah, triggering these associations in your brain that otherwise wouldn't get associate associated with the with that external, you know, help.

Um, I I I remember, like, 1 of the the cards that I pulled out when I was doing my reading and this was when I had just, um, quit my full time job, you know, from a consultancy because I was burnt out. And I was in this liminal space and I attended the workshop with her and 1 of the cards I pulled out was, um, something to do with death, and and there was another card around, you know, getting on a boat and going somewhere. So the the interpretation for for me from that card was, okay, you know, let the old die and get on a boat as a migrant would, you know, just take things that you really, really need for the next live, get on a boat and see where that takes you. And that I guess that that association in my mind really gave me that comfort that, oh, yeah. I'm I'm in the right track, you know, there's [00:33:00] there's nothing I need to worry about.

Tutti Taygerley: I think that's a lot of the work that It's important for us to do when we're user researchers or designers. And for me, I really consider this as a coach. I think some of the superpower is providing Comfort, confidence, space, spaciousness, and helping to provide it for for ourselves and for other people. I mean, it really is tools and experiments are all buttresses. They're all buffers To say, hey.

This is all part of the process. You know? It's it's really gonna be okay as long as you're Still alive, and you're still trying new things, and you're moving on on a 

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. And and the funny thing is that, um, we as designers, we embrace that messiness and uncertainty in our [00:34:00] design processes.

Tutti Taygerley: Sometimes.

Nirish Shakya: it it is difficult to apply that same mindset when it comes to your own life because there is so much, you know, emotional baggage that's attached to it. You're like, okay, you know, what what if I get homeless?

What if I do this? What if I, you know, what what if that happens? And I think it it for me, like, what's been helpful is to bring some level of neutrality into your own perspective about yourself.

Tutti Taygerley: Mhmm.

Nirish Shakya: And, you know, I'm like, you know, we're both spiritual. Um, and 1 thing that I'm learning to do more of is just trusting the universe, it sounds kind of woo woo, but, you know, the universe doesn't give a flying fuck.

But the fact that you are part of this this grand thing that's happening, you know, makes 

you not just a part of universe, makes you the universe. And you're having this extremely unique experience [00:35:00]that no 1 else, no other entity is having in this very moment, not that that we know of. And letting that that, I guess, you know, game play out can sometimes be the the best thing you can do just to kind of let go in, you know, like, how this got this concept of, you know, Daoism of just letting things happen and going with the flow. Um, just trying to adopt that mindset and letting go of control has been very beneficial for me because I've always been taught to take control. You know, you are always hundred percent responsible for you for your life and you can, you know, you can go out and get it for yourself and whatnot, which is a you know, it's a great mindset that's helped me in the past, certainly in the past.

But there has been times where it's probably better to let go of the mountain and let go of that control and just, I guess, you know, float on the on the river of the universe that you're flowing in.[00:36:00]

Tutti Taygerley: And I think we all do that. If anyone's listening and finds this a little bit woo, 1 of the things I'd ask you to consider is, Yeah. If you're stuck on a problem, if you've been sitting at your desk for too long, if you've been trying to figure out the solution to this Thing, whether it's who you talk to next, whether it's how you resolve a problem with a difficult person, like, what's whatever it is, It's pretty amazing to get outside and go for a walk. It's pretty amazing to, You know, walk through a park even if it is Central Park surrounded by buildings or, you know, The beach, just getting outside, whatever the elements are, whether it's daytime or nighttime, Re re shifts your [00:37:00] perspective. And if that's not a way to believe, like, Answer, well, maybe you do trust the universe. Maybe you can be out immersed in in nature and look at the moon and the stars. You No. I don't know what else is. 1 of the other things that I always ask people to do because I have a fierce skeptic.

Right? Someone tells me something, I'm like, no. That makes no sense. You're out of your mind. That is so woo.

But 1 of the things that 1 of my 1 of my teachers and guides has always said is, like, well, if you're trying to form trust, if you're trying to build relationships, What's the 10 percent in what they're saying that you can believe in? You know? So if you're listening to this and you're like, what is this trust the universe bullshit? You know? The 10 percent that I offer you is, well, do you feel different sometimes when you go outside?

When you, you know, Go for a swim or when [00:38:00] you, like, walk with your feet on the grass. And if so, then maybe there's something in there, that there is something bigger. And And the power of nature is kinda similar to the science behind, like, the power of meditation, the the same way that, like, You know, eating healthy and exercise is good for you. It's very, very hard to do.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. And when it comes to this whole notion of trust, I think, yeah, it is so crucial to also trust yourself and the unique superpowers that you have. And 1 of the things that you're very big on is, you know, what this concept of navigating your otherness, in terms of embracing your you know, what makes you unique, embracing your differences, maybe even embracing things that you think of as weaknesses, right? You know, coming from your own very eclectic, you know, background [00:39:00] and you've lived in, like, what, 7 different countries, you've had so many different experiences around the world, um, you know, you come from an Asian background, and now live in America.

I think as humans, we are programmed to, um, assimilate. Right? We were programmed to not stand out from the herd. And I remember like, you know, when I was growing up in Nepal, um, we used to watch, you know, He Man cartoon. It's back in the eighties.

Um, and most of the cartoons I watched were like western cartoons and TV shows. And I wanted to be like them. I wanted to be, you know, be blondes and whites. And I thought that was the the standard of attractiveness. And then that kinda later transitioned into that was a standard [00:40:00] standard of, I don't know, intelligence or professionalism or whatever, right?

And I remember going, you know, growing up wishing I was white And after moving to then Australia and then now the UK, um, what I've realized is that I always tended to kind of like hide my Nepalese identity, my Nepalese heritage, um, because maybe in a way I was ashamed of it. Um, I don't know why, but I always thought that was inferior to this kind of Western ideals of being, feeling, and thinking. Um, and it's only more recently that I was like, you know, trying to get back in touch with my own roots and heritage. So I guess my question to you is how can build people get started in starting to connect back with their their roots, their what [00:41:00] and what makes them unique and not feeling a sense of shame in embracing where they've come from, their roots.

Tutti Taygerley: This is such an important question, and I'm so glad you're bringing it up. I'm gonna go a different direction and make and then come back here. Ultimately, in my heart and soul, I'm a systems designer. So I think, especially for many people who are trained as design thinkers, as we are all trained, I think, uh, a first cerebral approach is not a bad 1. So the first cerebral approach I would invite people to look at is to Understand the system and understand the history of the system. The things that you're talking about Is I don't know. The history of [00:42:00] our world, the history of colonialism, the history the recent history of Who are the superpowers, which is you know, I don't do so well in, like, far, far back history, but recent history being Europeans and the US out of colonialism taking over a number of different countries. Now I I went to high school in in India.

You know? Thailand is very proud. My home country is very proud of never having been Owned by any other foreign power. But, really, it's kind of the system of Independent nations, like, having this sense of belonging and then being like, boom, invaded by something else. And look, there was a lot of good stuff that came out, maybe some learnings, maybe some things, maybe like more riches or whatever That is.

But [00:43:00] if we take a look at the system and where the power dynamics are, the power here in this case was From the west. West is best. It's from power. It's from the Power of media and entertainment. You talk about He Man.

It's from the power of Hollywood. It's from the power of we don't know what we want unless we see it. And I was I was in the media space for a long time, and there is such power in seeing Faces and figures like yourself. There's such power in seeing, like, not just the norm. I was just reading.

Like, the Emmy's just happened. This is the first time that, you know, best male, Best I don't think it's called this, but best actor and best actress went to, um, the 2 Asian actors for beef. It's the first time that that's happened. Right? And it's because systems are changing.[00:44:00]

They're changing very, very, very slowly because systems take a long time to change, but they are changing generation by generation. So the first part that I say is understand the system and understand the system that you you grew up with. You know? My mother, um, was born in Hong Kong. My grandparents were all from southern China.

And from, um, the war, World War 2, were kinda Trying to escape out of being out of being the various invasions. I think primarily it was the Japanese invasion then, you know, and Fled to to both Hong Kong and then eventually to to Thailand. To this day, She has because she was born in Hong Kong and Hong Kong was a British colony, she holds her British passport. She doesn't wanna give it up for a Thai passport because it's British, and that's best. that's the system she grew up with.

Like, [00:45:00] We are a product of the systems we're in. We're a product of the company cultures of, like, our education system, what our parents believe in. So, of course, you wanted to be white. I wanted to be white. That was an era or a time And through, you know, the eighties that we probably grew up in, where this was the epitome of what we saw. Doesn't happen for my kids. My kids are biracial. They're half Asian, half white. They grow up in San Francisco. Like, they have been Inundated with wokeness their entire life. For them, the system that they grew up in. And I'm not comparing Goodnesses or badnesses are systems. Systems are simply systems. If you're a system designer, you know how hard it is you want system to work, and then it evolves and grows on its own. But they grow up in a completely different system where, You know, she'll they'll [00:46:00] no.

I can't share the story. He will kill me. Alright. I can't share any of these stories because I promise not to. But let's just say that I really want to, but I won't.

In these systems, it's better to be unique. You don't wanna be basic. You don't wanna have the basic name, the basic family. You don't wanna be vanilla. For her and the people around her, otherness, your uniqueness, that is special.

So these things come and go. So the first question that I ask people to look at is what is the system? And then secondly, where do you wanna be in the system? I'm not giving you a very conventional answer, which is like, look at your strengths, look at your heritage, look at your valleys, look look at where you're good at because, you know, I get bored of giving that answer. But it's a bunch of designers.

So let's look at the system and look at where you want your place in the system to be. And also and this is the part where this is the, You know? No shame part. We [00:47:00] all wanna belong. We group together in tribes. I just watched Mean Girls. You see it in a high school ecosystem. You go into the lunch room. Am I part of the jocks? Am I part of, like, the band geeks?

Am I part of, like, the art crowd? Like, this is basic human nature. You look for people like you. You look for things in common. We want To belong.

And then for the longest time when you and I were growing up, and still remnants in the corporate world, there was 1 way to lead. It is a patriarchal system. There is a race And style of leader that is preferred. This is what you see when you simply look at the data and the facts. There is a style of leadership, maybe a holdover from military days, I don't know, that is more command and control. And, of course, that is the [00:48:00] baseline standard that we look at and say that's good. And that's how the educational system has been. Back to the fact that, like, what do you want? You want the grades because the teacher is gonna tell you what's right and what's wrong. It's not bad, But see the system.

Know the system. Understand the system, and then you can figure out what your place in it is. I went completely off,

So redirect me where you want us to

Nirish Shakya: I I love that because, you know, we are assigned these lenses through which, you know, we're meant to look at the world and what we see might not be reality.

It's just, you know, a version of reality that we're seeing. And what you're saying is that don't just look through the lens, look at the lens. What is the lens that you've been given? And what is the the distortion of reality that you're actually seeing?

Tutti Taygerley: Mhmm.

Nirish Shakya: And I think there is there is great power in that awareness because a lot of times [00:49:00] we're not even aware that there are these, um, stronger forces at play here in terms of how we interpret the world around us.

We just take everything that we, you know, get through our sensory inputs as reality when every person has their own version of reality manifesting at every any given moment.

Tutti Taygerley: Yeah. Absolutely.

Nirish Shakya: Nice. So looking back at your own self, um, I'm sure you've you've had to go through these challenges associated to your own identity, um, trying to find your own place in the world and trying to extract your uniqueness despite the fear of maybe the possibility of not, you know, being able to belong to certain groups, the fear of standing out, [00:50:00] what advice would you give to that younger self, the younger tutti who is still trying to figure out and embrace their uniqueness.

Tutti Taygerley: I think it depends what you're looking for right now. There is no way that I would tell anyone in middle school or high school to Embrace your own uniqueness right now. Figure out what unique butterfly it is you are. Part of it is just looking at motivation and what the questions that are facing you are. If you're in middle school or high school, you might just be like, how do I fit in? How do I be like everyone else? And if that's the most important thing, that totally makes sense. If you're in the first 90 days of a new job, I really wouldn't be thinking about what is my own uniqueness.

I would [00:51:00] be really thinking, alright. What is this place? Where am I working? What is the culture? How do I ask questions?

How do I stay open and curious and understand? So I'd say the first step is seek to understand. Understand the system. Again, whether it's the high school system, the first job system, the, you know, move to a new neighborhood system, Um, new country, new city. What's the system? After you move past that, Then is the next question is, how do I want to fit within this system? Do I want to assimilate, Or do I want to do something different? And I have no right or wrong answer to this. There are plenty of times and reasons to assimilate. Not the least being when you take a job, it's a contract that you are going to do certain things, hit certain expectations, and that's why they're paying you because it's a business.

Right? You got to meet the basic expectations [00:52:00] of the job because that's the contract that you've signed. Where I do believe that true fulfillment and, like, a true sense of satisfaction lies Is knowing what your unique place in the system is. What are you doing that nobody else can do Exactly like this. And look.

We are conditioned. I pretty much mostly work with high achievers. We are conditioned to look for where we're doing things wrong. Think about the last time you got a performance review. Let's say it was written.

How much time did you spend on the, You're doing a great job on this and this and this and this. Did you flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip, flip through it and be like, what do I need to know? What do I need to improve? I'm not doing well. How do I 

Nirish Shakya: I do that all the time.

Tutti Taygerley: we all do this. [00:53:00] Right? Whatever the re and we won't go into reasons. But So if there was 1 just 1 thing beyond this understand the system that I would want Everyone to walk away with. It is really an understanding of How are you doing what you do in a way that's different than than anyone else?

I think there's a couple of ways that you can look at it. It's like, what are you good at? When other people talk about you or think about you, you know, Are they gonna say, Anik, you're really good at pulling together a presentation very quickly. Or Anik, you're really good at asking questions And then, you know, unveiling this. So it's like, what are you good at?

And this could be, you might have the self awareness to know this for yourself, Or you might not, in which case, use the [00:54:00] mirrors, the trusted people around you just to be like, what do you think I'm good at? A really good thing to ask, ask your parents. They will get like, they have to mostly kinda love you and give you that part. Ask your parents, your best friend, your trusted, what am I good at? So that's useful.

The second thing, What lights you up? What gives you energy? What gets you into this state of flow? For some people, it might be collaborating with other people and create some for others, it might be like deep time coding, Might be designing, deep time design, but what type of designing? Is it like the detailed micro interactions?

Is it, I don't know, the Service design over time. Like, what is it? And when you're asking yourselves these these questions, go as Scrutiatingly specific as you can. Oh, if you're in an interview and someone asks you, what's your favorite part of [00:55:00] the design process? Please don't say, oh, the research and discovery.

So generic. At least go, you know, 3, 4, 5 levels deeper and give examples. Like, the The gems are in the specifics. So the 2 things was, um, what do other what what are you good at and what do you what do you enjoy? That's probably a good enough space to start for from now.

I mean, the third tool that I do like a lot is this notion of values. Uh, what do you stand for? What matters to you? And I really look at these as, like, spanning your personal and professional Life, like what? These are kind of basic tenets.

You you've all made design principles. Figure out what the design principles for your life are. And you've also all made design principles that were bullshit, like Simple. Human. Don't do that.

Make it specific and find a way to talk about it in which it's [00:56:00] unique to you. So, like, instead of simple, just be like, you know, cuts things down to their barest essence. That's another way of saying simple that's a lit just a little more specific. So those are 3 ways to explore and 3 questions to explore. Like, who who am I?

What matters to me?

Nirish Shakya: I love

Tutti Taygerley: Oh, 1 last thing. People forget about it a lot. I think it's a really interesting question. Um, when I was doing my research for my second book about leadership in Asian American women, I asked Every person does.

And it was, like, the most, uh, it was the most, I think, informative question, which is, Is there a value or a set of beliefs just growing up in your particular culture with your particular parents or grandparents That really stood out to you. Yeah. And a lot of people will say hard work, hustle, things like that. And but then the next question is really interesting, which is, [00:57:00] well, how has that helped you in your career? And has there ever been a time where you've needed to leave that behind? So 3 really interesting questions that I think go into people's lived experience. We all have a very unique fabric and texture of a lived experience, so don't ignore it. Go back there and investigate in mine and see if there's anything interesting there that helps with your your particular flavor of otherness.

Nirish Shakya: Love that. So, if I were to ask Tutti Tigrid, what makes Tutti Tigrid unique. What would they say?

Tutti Taygerley: I am pretty of risk. I have, like, this ridiculous And so I wanna try it.

Just this huge, huge, huge [00:58:00] yes. Like, it's always a yes. Let's try it. Let's see what happens. And and then I run experiments, and then I evaluate.

And it's a strength because I do lots of things. And it's a huge weakness because it can leave me very, very unfocused, um, diffuse and, uh, can really hurt the people around me if I am Taking risks that do not feel comfortable.

Nirish Shakya: And and where does that come from for you?

Tutti Taygerley: I wish I knew the answer to that question. Yeah. Because it's, uh, it's definitely a question I've asked myself a lot. always had it. It could come from, you know, a desire to rebel against a controlling mother and Not being told what to do, not being told no all the time. It could come from, like, the adventurousness of my family, my parents who, Yeah. My dad worked for Thai Airways. [00:59:00] He was their growth guy.

He was the guy who they would send out to a new A new country, a new city to, like, figure out what to do there and figure out how to establish, like, is this a worthwhile, like, flight path for Thai Airways? Could come from my grandparents or other ancestors who, you know, left China in search of something better. Your guess is as good as mine. It's but it's 

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. I think what what I've picked from that is, there might not be just 1 source of who you are right now. Um, in my mind I'm I'm getting this visual of this, you know, those, um, ancestry trees you get, like, with all these, like, branches and you are right in the middle. So who you are has been a culmination of your ancestral, you know, heritage and where you've come from and there are so many different sources that have come together to make you you. And sometimes we we don't need [01:00:00] clear answers to all of them.

Sometimes we just need to acknowledge, you know who you are in the moment, um, and and what you can do in that moment.

Tutti Taygerley: Yeah. I love right now is that I'm playing with my next book. I'll share it because, like, I well, I have 2 book ideas. I haven't quite decided if it's 1 or the other yet.

But The 1 that kind of fits the sense of meanness is, uh, I don't have the exact title, but Unicorn yourself. Learn how to experiment with your leadership Using the techniques that have worked in Silicon Valley, which is run a bunch of experiments, take a bunch of risks, try different things, and figure out how you can learn from it. This is a kernel of an idea. I think this is the first time I've shared it publicly, but it it does [01:01:00] relate to What is the core of how I live and what I

Nirish Shakya: Lovely. I like that. When is this book coming out?

Tutti Taygerley: answer that question. I'm still working on the book before that. 

Nirish Shakya: Have you have you figured out a title

Tutti Taygerley: in my lifetime in my lifetime, it will come out.

Nirish Shakya: Have you figured out a title yet?

Tutti Taygerley: I might be unicorn yourself, but I don't

know. We'll see. Titles come last. Like, 

titles don't matter. They come last. You have a working title, and then You get input from 50000000 people. A title is really a marketing exercise more than anything else, and often other people are better at marketing Yourself that you

Nirish Shakya: So what what comes first then?

Tutti Taygerley: The kernel of the idea, The who it's for?

Who are the people you're talking to? Um, what are the problems that people face? [01:02:00] The same as design. You know? What are the problems and user needs you're solving for and who are the people?

And then what's the solution? What's the idea?

Nirish Shakya: I was recently reading a book called The Creative Act by Rick Rubin. And in that book, um, he says he suggests, you know, you know, make art for yourself first and your target audience should always come last. What's your philosophy around your writing, your creation? Do you write for yourself or your past self Or do you write for a certain target audience in mind?

Tutti Taygerley: It depends. You know, I would argue that if you're making art, it's entirely for yourself. But designers aren't artists.

We have constraints. We have commercial viability. We have product market fit. So I think there's different types of writing [01:03:00] and different types of creation and creativity, and it depends what the what the purpose is. You know?

I I write a lot for myself. Um, I write to learn. That was why I told myself when I left Facebook that I was gonna write a blog post every single week. It was for myself. It was for myself, for my learning.

It was very, very selfish. Um, I still do a lot of that. You know? Most of the ways that I go out and experience the world, like, I'll write about for myself. Like, I write a lot.

You know, I had a whole 3 part series of leadership lessons from Burning Man. Just like, what is this amazing, wonderful world and ex and experience and Ecosystem and what can you learn from that? Um, but that's very different than than a book. I would never write A book for my myself because it takes so many thousands of hours for that. Um, For that, [01:04:00] it's very much like, why am I doing this?

Why am I writing this? I'm writing this so that I can change someone's life. I can give them a new idea. I can give them a new perspective. So for that, that's very much in a framework where I don't consider that art.

I consider that, I don't know. A message impact. I consider that a designed experience where in order to evoke transformation, because, you know, I'm in the solid sphere of nonfiction books. I nonfiction self help business books, and sometime I hope to to write fiction in my lifetime. But right now, it's very much I want to evoke transformation in people. And how I do that, I need to know their needs, Their problems, who they are, and then have a solution for that. It's not art. It's how design's different than art.

Nirish Shakya: Nice.

So

Tutti Taygerley: Oh, I I will add 1 part of it, [01:05:00] though.

Nirish Shakya: Joe, go for

Tutti Taygerley: If you solely focus on All of those things.

That's just the thinking. And some people will do that. You will read some dry, maybe academic papers of, like, Here's the need. Here's the research. Here's the user.

Here's the solution. I go back to, like, the He Man stuff that we talked about. You gotta make it entertaining and fun. There is so much content out in the world. No one's gonna read something dry.

You gotta add the feeling into it. And the easiest way to add the feeling into it is to add you into it, your own personal lived experiences.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah.

Tutti Taygerley: That's the easiest thing to write about, really. 

So 

Nirish Shakya: you know, like, I've I've I've read so many books where you can't really see the author in the book, in the content. And and for me that's an indication of, should I say, lack of self awareness or [01:06:00] courage to press themselves or put themselves in in their content and try to sound professional or just try to be this version that they you think the audience once.

Tutti Taygerley: I would argue it's also a style thing. This whole, like, be yourself, be vulnerable, put yourself in the picture, put your Self in the story all very new in the last decades. I mean, we We're a product of the systems and the culture we're we're in. You know? And I talk about that a lot in terms of, like, your work culture, But I also look at the greater your country's culture, the world culture, and I think that's an evolution. Like, we And I do the exact same thing as you do, so I'm not picking on you. Like, that's what we look for.

We look for the story and the humanity, but There is a whole other standard [01:07:00] of writing that was much more textbook, and that's how you consume information from experts. So they're experts because of their facts and information, the design thinking, if you will, and not their emotional lived experiences of it.

Nirish Shakya: you know, that was the system that they were part of which dictated their behaviors and that's okay. You know, there is neutrality in that that involves, yeah, changes and this the system that you're part of will shape your, um, the way you express yourself and that's okay as well. There is no right or wrong way to do it.

Tutti Taygerley: And the system is made up of individuals, So you can change the system.

It just may take a very, very, very long time and feel like it takes a ton of energy, but it'll happen.

Nirish Shakya: Love it. So, Tutu, you've lived in 7 countries.

If you had to pick 1 country's cuisine to cheer you up in a bad day. [01:08:00] Which 1 would you pick? And what's the

Tutti Taygerley: This is really hard. This is really hard. Like, remember I like lots of things having to pick 1. Alright.

If I have to pick 1, I would pick Japanese because there is such the wide range of how I want to be cheered up. There's nothing, like, as comforting as a big bowl of, like, ramen with, like, noodles and broth. And then maybe I just need, like, a spark of, like, uni or some new fish that I've never tried just to yeah. And then there are so Many, like, depths of sub Japanese cuisines that I've never tried.

And what what I love the most about Food in Japan is that you will go to this 1 place, and all they will have is this 1 thing, this 1 dish, and they have perfected it So, well, all [01:09:00] they're gonna have in this 1 place is chicken katsu curry, but it's gonna be the best chicken katsu curry that you've ever had. And I value expertise and, like, specialization as well, so I picked Japanese food for that 

Nirish Shakya: Lovely. Um, I've never been to Japan, it's always been on my list, but, um, you've maybe want to kind of bump it up my list a bit more. So what what 

are the yeah?

Tutti Taygerley: than London.

Nirish Shakya: So what other 6 countries are in your list that where where you lived?

So 

Tutti Taygerley: Wait. That I want to go to or the ones that, 

um, 

Nirish Shakya: lived

Tutti Taygerley: So I was born in Singapore, and then we moved to the Netherlands. Um, after that, Moved to Hong Kong, which at that point was considered a country. Thailand, the US, and I've lived in the UK as

well. So those are the countries. Jeez. Not that many, [01:10:00] actually.

I mean, it was all during a particular period of my evolution. I hope to live in many more.

Nirish Shakya: Nice, yeah, I'm sure we can, you know, go into so much more detail as to your learnings from all these different countries, um, and also, you know, what what are some of your future aspirations around well, let me ask you, like, if you could live anywhere, where would you where would you live?

Tutti Taygerley: You're hard of a question for me to pick, like, 1. Like, ideally, I would, um, you know, spend a year in A number of different places. I think it's hard to pick just 1.

Like, if I had to pick just 1, I suppose San Francisco is as good as

any. 

Nirish Shakya: it. 

Tutti Taygerley: Yeah. I have access to mountains. I have access to ocean. I have access to culture, and I have huge depths of community here.

Nirish Shakya: Nice. Nice. I've never been the closest I've been is, um, LA, but, [01:11:00] yeah.

Again another 1 on my list.

Tutti Taygerley: Yep.

Nirish Shakya: So, um, Tutti imagine that it is your last day on Earth. And you are on your deathbed and someone comes up to you with a tiny post it and a Sharpie and asks you to write your last few words. What would you write on that tiny piece of post it?

Tutti Taygerley: Who's it for?

Nirish Shakya: It's it could be let's say it's for for whoever's listening right now.

Tutti Taygerley: I really trust the process. It's the 1 I come back to over and over again that isn't too overly cheesy and, [01:12:00] You know? And I think reflects a lot of the the core of what happened. The other 1 I considered, which my father-in-law did pass on in his deathbed on his deathbed was, uh, choose love. So maybe I will present these as the as the duality together.

Trust the process and choose love.

Nirish Shakya: powerful. I think, yeah, that's that's something that I'm learning through my mindfulness practice in terms of how powerful it can be to bring love as as 1 of your choices that you can make. Because a lot of times we don't think consciously about love, you know, you you just it's meant to happen in the background.

But when you consciously choose love, even when you're feeling anxious if you can bring in your compassionate self to give love to your anxious self that can really [01:13:00] calm down a lot of your anxiety. And, again, that stems from your conscious choice you've made for love. And for me, you know, trusting the process is about, yeah, trust pretty much about trusting the universe, you know, the the universe is going through a process, um, and and you're part of that. And and your process might be at a much more micro level, but it's still a process that you can have faith in, um, and be in in the moment. 

Tutti Taygerley: The only other thing I would add to choose love that I think, like, breaks it down to a small action Is you know, if you're not sure what to do, what's the kindest thing you could do in this moment? If you're arguing with someone, if you're pissed off, like, choose love, do you think? Like, in that little micro interaction, it's the kindest And then you can go ahead and ask the full follow-up questions, kind of for who, for the people you're with, for yourself, but it just makes [01:14:00] it a little less a little more specific and less Grandiose, but, you know, that, like, parting deathbed post it does have to have some level of grandiosity as well.

Nirish Shakya: Love that. So, Tutti, there are there are so many, um, spaces we went to over the last hour or so. Um, and 1 of the spaces that we explored was around this these liminal spaces that a lot of us are in, these transitionary periods which can feel like you're being uprooted and you only have this ground to, you know, stable ground to to land on and that can be really insight inducing.

Um, and I think 1 of the things I learned from from from you was around just acknowledging where you are, what kind of space you're in, and what kind of space that you've been uprooted from. And that can explain a lot as to why you're feeling what you're feeling right now. And whatever you're feeling right now is is okay. [01:15:00] And especially if you do have the the privilege to be able to make some space in this non liminality, you could use this as an opportunity to see what else is out there that you can explore, uh, beyond just the the narrow vision that you might be constricted constricted within, you know, can use this as an opportunity to discover your own uniqueness or more of your own uniqueness and what value that you can add to the world beyond just what you've been doing so far. Um, understanding the system has been another, you know, crucial theme for me.

And trying to understand where you are currently in the system and where you want to be in the system as well. Um, finding that in a unique place of yours in this of you in the system and some of the questions you recommended is something that I'll definitely try in terms of, you know, what are you good at and what lights you up, um, in your work, [01:16:00] in your life, um, and experimenting with yourself. Like you said, unicorn yourself because I think for me, life is an experiment, you know. It it's some sometimes you this experiment succeeds, sometimes it fails, but doesn't mean that you are a success of failure. You're just a scientist, you know, adopting that scientist's hat to conduct experiments in their life.

And while you're doing that, it is so crucial to trust the process because a lot of times we don't know what the experiment is gonna lead to. It is the results are uncertain. So trust in the process becomes important to keep your own sanity. Um, and in the moment when there's decisions you have to make, choices you have to make, choose love. And also ask yourself what is the kindest thing you can do in that moment?

Tutti Taygerley: Nice summary. Look at you. You're good at 

this. 

Nirish Shakya: you. I mean, I was trying to make [01:17:00] sense of, like, this all these, like, juicy insights and learnings that I've collected in the past, um, hour and, yeah, I was just trying to do justice to that. And, um, I think I'm I'm sure there's a lot that I missed there

Tutti Taygerley: Justice

done. Justice 

Nirish Shakya: trust the 

Tutti Taygerley: you go. There comes He Man.

Nirish Shakya: Great.

Thank you so much, Tutti. Um, it's been a pleasure and it's such it's been such an enlightening experience for me and I'm sure it's been the same for anyone who's listening right now. So if people wanna get in touch with you or follow you or, you know, check you out online, how can they do that?

Tutti Taygerley: Reach out to me on LinkedIn. It's Tutti Tagerly.

Um, if you want more information, go to my website. It's Tutti Tagerly dot com. All of this stuff, I talk and write about it all very, very openly. So you sign up for my newsletter. You'll make sure you get it all in your inbox.

And then [01:18:00] finally, if you're looking for a speaker, a teacher for any of these topics, you know, I love to speak on DEI topics around otherness and looking for diversity of bot. I love to speak on leadership. Please reach out. I'll come do it.

Nirish Shakya: And, um, thank you so much for that, Tutti.

Um, it's been a pleasure and, um, I hope that, um, you know, we will see you again on Design Feeling for part 2, there's so much more that we can we definitely need to dig into and, um, until then, have a a great rest of your day, and we'll see you again soon.

Tutti Taygerley: Thank you so much.

This was so much fun.

Nirish Shakya: So, what did you think of the conversation? What's the 1 thing that stood out to you? Drop it in the comments below and please consider giving this video like and subscribe if you'd like to support this channel And get this video out to more people. And feel free to drop me a line if you'd like to share any [01:19:00] thoughts or ideas or maybe suggestions for any Topics or guests that you'd like to see? See you next time. 

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