Redefining growth: Embracing curiosity and transversal skills with Saskia Listle

Saskia Listle: [00:00:00] it's a sign of our times to look into what do you really want? Um, the, the mantra of new work. What do you really, really, really want? And whatever you really, really, really want will then form the shape that you wanna have. Um, and I wouldn't start with with putting yourself, I wanna be a t shape and this is why I have to specialize on this. Or just run with what you like and see where you end up.

Nirish Shakya: That's Saskia Listle. Saskia is a founder of the Academy of Future Skills, which is a community of learning practice, a think tank, and a consultancy on the future of our skills. She calls herself a digital humanist, a bridge builder between humans and tech. In this conversation Saskia, she light on the importance of transversal skills, a k a soft skills and how they can give us a sense of purpose that hard skills [00:01:00] don't. And you might have heard of the T-shaped employee, but Saskia introduces us to the V-shaped employee. We also discussed the differences between the two, and we've also come to the realization that the V-shape actually aligns really neatly with the double diamond in the design process. And be prepared to be challenged about the notion of the growth mindset and how sometimes it can be a double-edged sword.

Shivaun: This is the Design Feeling Podcast with your host Nirish Shakya. Hello. My name is Nirish Shakya and I'm a human-centered designer, educator and coach. And this is a podcast for well, human-centered designers and innovators and problem solvers who tend to forget the human within the. The conversations you'll hear will help you increase your [00:02:00] self-awareness and creative confidence so that you can make the impact that gives you the joy and meaning that you seek.

Nirish Shakya: Let's get started.

Saskia, welcome to Design Feeling. It's really good to have you on the show. Have you been?

Saskia Listle: you. Thank you for inviting me. I'm fairly good and I'm excited to, to talk to you and to see where this conversation takes us.

Nirish Shakya: Great. Same, same here as well. Um, and yeah, we had a really good chat on your podcast. you. I wanted to continue that conversation, uh, by putting you on the other side this time and, uh, see what, you know, what are some of the amazing things I can learn from you.

Saskia Listle: Yeah. Uh, you mentioned it, it's, it's kind of exciting to be on the other side for once, uh, being a podcast host. It's, it's kind of like that, that photograph of photographer. Feeling of, normally you're behind the camera and you can kind of lean back and let the other person talk and now suddenly you're like, oh, hold on, I'm the center of attention now.

So let's see how that goes.[00:03:00]

Nirish Shakya: So, Saskia. You are a founder of the Academy of Future Skills and you also host a podcast. Um, on, on the same topic around future skills, having conversations around that, and you also yourself a humanist.

Saskia Listle: Well, I.

When we talk about digitalization, we always talk about these two things. We talk about that technological part, that digital part that is on one side, and we have the human part on it that has little to do with it because on the one side you have the zero and the ones, the hard facts and everything. And on the other side you have those soft human people thing that's going on.

And, uh, we, we tend to separate that artificially, although one is very much influenced by the other and has very much to do with how everything works in the configuration. And so, yeah, as a digital [00:04:00] humanist, I try to bridge those two sides, bring them together, um, and enhance the conversations how one can actually benefit the other.

And.

The, and well right now we have that conversation turning a lot around the will AI take away our jobs. Um, so there's always that conflict, that fight between the two sides. And I'd like to bridge that and bring them together and say, no, it's one can't exist without the other, or shouldn't exist without the other.

I'd say like that. Yeah. So that's what I try to do as a digital humanist.

Nirish Shakya: What does that bridge look like?

Saskia Listle: Um, it's a bit, no, lemme start differently here. I actually don't like the saying of technology will take over as well as I don't like the story of technology is just a tool. [00:05:00] Um, I think it's somewhere in the middle. Um, and I think we as humans, on the one hand, technology just exists because we came up with it, right?

Uh, technology, especially if you talk about technology in that high tech IT department didn't just come out of thin air or some god or whatever you believe in, just created it. But we humans actually put our minds to work and to create it. So it wouldn't exist without us and our brains. On the other hand, I think we can enhance what we as humans do and create with the help of technology.

Um, so it's somewhere in the middle of that narrative of technology can do everything. And technology is just a tool. Um, it needs that interaction between the two sides. It needs us to actually put effort into it, to enhance it, to innovate it. But on the other hand, it can also enhance what we are doing and how we're doing stuff.[00:06:00]

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. And, and you are operating this, um, cross-section of, um, skills. Technology, uh, learning. Um, where did this start for you? Like if, let's say they, if they made a movie about Saskia, where, what would be the first scene of that 

Saskia Listle: mm-hmm. That's an interesting question. Uh, 'cause normally when I talk about it, I always lead with. My story doesn't have that red threat, not that obvious red threat. Um, I didn't go to university and then come out with a, with a degree and then work in that field until the end of time. Um, but actually when I think about it, I think it did really start with my apprenticeship that I did after school.

Um, so I worked in a hotel for two and a half years as my apprenticeship. And [00:07:00] especially in, in everything that has to do with hospitality, it is also a lot about people. It is a lot about knowing what people want, and it is knowing what people want before they want it or before they know they want it. Um, and then it's making that happen.

So the person who comes into a hotel has the best stay of their lives basically, or at least for that amount of time. Uh, really good stay and, and has a great time there. Just making it happen to people. Have a great time, and at the same time, you can make a lot of that happen by the use of technology coming back to the coffee machine.

Yeah. It in a way, it is a form of technology. The coffee machines we have right now, we're not standing there with hand filters and pouring hot water over the coffee grounds in front of the person, right? We're having a machine there, we're pressing a button and the coffee comes out. So technology allows us to make that [00:08:00] happen in a more advanced way.

Um, and I was always fascinated by that, how that works together or when I was working at the front desk, how you can prepare the check-in experience, um, beforehand because you have the technology people book their stay online and they can give you their ideas beforehand. Like, I wanna stay away the furthest from the elevator as possible because I don't like the noise, for example.

So you can plan ahead more efficiently, um, than you would if you had like in the old times where you had those books where everybody had to write in their name when they came in. Um, so on the one hand, it is about the person. It is putting the person in the center and seeing what they want and what they need to have a great stay.

But on the other hand, it's also technology.

And I wanna say that's where the whole thing started. And I did look into each of those sections. On the one hand, the hospitality on the [00:09:00] other hand, uh, the, the IT sector also separate from another, been going through different steps. Um, and before I started the Academy of Future Skill, I was actually working in, I wanna say hardcore IT consulting.

So there was nothing obviously hospitality, uh, connected in that. Um, and in that, in that, in my job as a consultant, what I noticed was that there human parts, I so often rationalized out of the process. You come into a company and you talk to the, the leader of the company, the c e o, or the Boyd in general.

And they say, well, in a, in a very, um, easy way. Okay, so we're just gonna get those computers, or we're gonna get just those machines and then we'll be fine. Then we'll be more cost efficient, then we'll be quicker, we'll be more efficient, whatever the [00:10:00] tail goes. But there's no focus on, okay, but who needs to know how to turn on that computer, for example, who needs to be trained?

How does that, um, interfere with the people who are already there? 'cause we're interacting with those machines, we're basically putting in another team member, even if that team member isn't human in that sense. So how does that work on the dynamics of a whole team? All of those stories, all of those things where, uh, there's actually a lot of people in going on in that hardcore it, uh, sector are too often neglected in the whole story.

And that's, I wanna say where it all came back together with, um, the field that I'm working in now with the academy that I'm working on now. Because I do think that it doesn't work without the human in the center because it works for us humans. Um, yeah. And that's, I wanna say the mission, bringing that back together.

How can we make the perfect [00:11:00] experience for people in this world, in this time by using technology to enhance the experience? And that's why I'm trying to figure out with the academy and, and with the projects that starting there.

Nirish Shakya: It's fascinating. I mean, it's, it's always really interesting to hear the origin stories of, you know, how you got to where you now and lot of that does have, you know, have something to do.

How that shaped your approach and your perspective. And I love that example you gave around how, you know, it is about predicting the latent needs there of, of, of the hu humans that you're trying to serve. You know, sometimes they might not wanna stay next to the elevator, for example. Right. Um, so and then how did that lead into you being curious about future skills?

Saskia Listle: So what I define as future skills is getting away [00:12:00] from our high technical skills, what we focus on right now, going to skills that are transferable. Um, and we, we tend to call them soft skills. I don't like the term soft skills, which is why I called, um, transversal skills. Um, just a bit of definition view for people who, who listen to the whole podcast.

Um, and I noticed also coming maybe back to my own story because. Again, I don't have that classical wet threat in my, in my cv. I don't have a classical, uh, run through. I didn't go to university right after school. Uh, I were studied apart from my job on a distance learning university, for example, because I was curious about it.

But then also I didn't finish it because what they were telling me didn't give me any value, um, that classical sense of value that you would think [00:13:00] of. Um, so I did a lot of things because I was curious about them being curious. However, it doesn't necessarily make for the best cv. And so my hiring experiences most of the time were fairly, um, yeah, let's call them shitty.

That's a, a bit more truth here. Um, because I, I basically never got food in the door. It like, I was sure that I could do what they said in the job descriptions, but either I was invited to a, to a meeting and then I was like, but you don't have this certificate, or you don't have that certificate, or you don't have that experience.

And I was like, well, no. On paper I don't, but I can do it. Gimme the chance and I'll prove it to you. But I never got to that chance. Um, and in, in the worst cases, I wanna say I wasn't even invited to a talk. Um, so yeah, [00:14:00] I, I went through a lot of rejection because I didn't have that certified way of doing stuff.

Um, And then coming back to the experience I had as an IT consultant, which is, by the way, just to, to finish that thread, this is also why I became a self-employed IT consultant. Um, because when you don't have, uh, a proper university degree, you can't even cook coffee in one of the big consulting firms, right?

You, you don't even get a foot in the door. Um, so anyway, I became that freelance consultant and I went into exactly the same experiences that people focus on skills, when in fact what makes them work together, what makes them succeed in the end. The transversal skills. Um, skills. There's that saying, um, hard skills is what will get you the job.

Transversal skills is what will keep you the job. Um, and also if we look into, for example, hiring practices, people are being let [00:15:00] go because the skills don't match anymore. Um, and then we put a lot of money into finding new people who supposedly have those skills because they have the certificates. Um, and then it turns out, well, we could have saved the money if we would just have paid that person a training, right?

So the focus on hard skills is so much ingrained in how we do business right now, and especially I'm using, uh, chat g p T right now because it's, it's a current example. We see how many of those, how it skills. Are actually worth nothing, quote unquote, um, when you suddenly have a technology that can easily replace those hard skills.

And we're seeing that over time already with machines where people at the, at the belts are saying like, well, but what do you need me for if a robot can put on that screw? Right? So we're in that process where more and more hard skills are actually replaceable by machines. And that [00:16:00] leaves the question, okay, but what about us as humans?

And the whole process and going from the, the theory that people need something to do, people need something to work. Um, the question then is, okay, what can we do in the whole thing? And the theory of the Academy of Future Skills, and also why that makes it very interesting for me is how can we create that understanding?

That our, our transversal skills are actually what will keep us in the jobs. What will keep us sane in a way. Because if we're running after the trends of height skills, we're just gonna end up learning a new thing on a daily basis, but never being really able to use it. But those transversal skills that help us navigate the work, that help us, um, make ourselves unique in that process, those are the things [00:17:00] that will keep us in the loop.

And those will also be the things that machines probably can't take over for quite a while. Like, um, chat GT can program or, or write the code without any problems. But it's also proven that the more complex the program gets, the more lost chat gpt. 'cause it doesn't have the capability to logically separate the complex problems into what belongs where and what has a connection to which.

So we will still need people who separate a project logically, and then Chacha PT can write the code. That's not a problem that that will be taken care of, but the logical breakdown of things. Oh, also I've read that thing recently on the internet saying like, well, um, if chat g p T should be able to take over a programmer's job, they need to understand the requirement the customers brings.

We're safe. 'cause it's also a thing of, of [00:18:00] translating those things that the customer needs and wants into what a computer can actually, uh, process. So

yeah, again, the theory of the Academy of Future Skills is that, The skills that we need to be present in the future and to be, how do I say that? To, to be present in the future.

And actually, I don't wanna say be happy in the future. 'cause that puts a, puts a weird notion on it, but to still be helpful and useful and we all wanna be useful. So, so I'm not taking that from that capitalistic, how productive are you? But giving ourselves a sense of usefulness in the system, um, is when

Nirish Shakya: A purpose.

Saskia Listle: Hmm. A purpose.

Yes. Yes. Thank you. Um, [00:19:00] that's exactly it. Giving us the, the sense of purpose in the new system will be our soft skills, um, and our transversal skills. Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. There's, there's definitely a lot I wanna unpick there. One of the things that, um, I wanted to kind of dig deeper. What you said earlier was you said, you know, does being curious doesn't make for the best cv. Tell me more about that. What did you mean by that?

Saskia Listle: So I'm a professional rabbit holder. I jump into all of them at any given time, um, and I'm very good at digging deep in a quick or short amount of time. Um, but if I would have to have a certificate for everything I dig into, I wouldn't have time to dig into the rabbit holes anymore 'cause I'd be busy writing those tests.

Um, so. Just jumping from [00:20:00] topic to topic and being more of a generalist, polymath, um, type of person isn't super valued in our society, and especially in the working world because we're very much focused on expertise and specialists. Um, that's the path we normally take. That's how the university, uh, university system narrows us down bit by bit.

We might have the bachelor's degree, the undergrad that is fairly broad, but then you take a specialization in your master's or your 

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. 

Saskia Listle: um, and then you work in that field forever and ever and ever. And the more experience you have in that particular niche, the more an expert you're seen as. So the, the narrowing down is very much what we on a societal level are focused on right now.

Um, and there's that, that classification between, for example, T and V. So T four. Tiger. And we for, I don't know how those are, I forgot. Um, [00:21:00] um, vacuum, I don't know. I don't know how they're, they're called in English, um, of these type of employees. And the T employee is the classical specialist. They have, like, they look a bit left or right, but not really much.

But they're very good in their, in their, and strong, in their, in their spec specialized field. Whereas the V employees are more, they have a broad overview over a lot of things, and they come together at some point because of all the different influences that they put into how they're doing stuff. And um, right now we're very much focusing on the t kind of employee, the, the specialist.

And then we bring together different specialists and they'll figure out the problem Also, we hope, um, But what the problem with that approach is that those [00:22:00] specialists, just by the nature of being a specialist, they have a very narrow view on looking on things on their specialized view. You need somebody in the process who can bring all those special narrow fields together and say, okay, if we take this from here and that from here, this could create this or that, but think outside the box mentality that you need to bring all those things together.

Um, but I don't see that being super established in the workforce. Um, and that's what I mean when I say curiosity isn't necessarily a. A valued thing. It's, it's valued on paper. You see that a lot where people say like, yeah, we need curious people. But then when it comes down to it, they're still focusing on the specialist.

They're still taking the specialist, because right now we're in a crisis and now we need that one person who brings us back on track. [00:23:00] It's, it's 

Nirish Shakya: Just gets the

Saskia Listle: yeah, exactly. And, um, yeah. Well, I'm, I'm not saying we don't need specialists, we need both of them. We need the specialists as well as the generalists. Right.

They need to work together and we need each of their expertise in a project. Um, but right now the pendulum is very, very much swung towards the specialist side and Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. I've, I've certainly come, come across the, the T-shaped, um, individual, but I haven't, I haven't actually heard of the V-shaped, um, individual. Like how they, well, how are they different? What did they actually look like in reality, I.

Saskia Listle: So how I see them a. A T-shaped employee is our classical specialist. That's the accountant that knows very well how, uh, accounting needs to be done. That is the engineer that knows very well how to design a car, for example. Um, they have a [00:24:00] very special knowledge in their particular field. The V-shaped employee has, I wanna say, a favorite topic, which comes down kind of as a focal point, um, which is the, the bottom of the V, so to say.

But whatever that focal point touches, the V-shaped employee is curious about and looks into and researches a bit and see how that is influenced by whatever topic they're looking at. Um, and they're also open. To include completely different topics. Um, like just making up a, a weird example, take may maybe have, say we have a V-shaped engineer.

Yeah. And, and that engineer is, uh, creating tires on a car, but he's also very [00:25:00] much interested in whales and maybe, let's see, getting into his whale documentary and having an idea about, well, you know, actually what is this process doing? Can we learn something from that, how we talk about tires? So there's that openness and that connectedness of different ideas that might not necessarily have a, a viewpoint or a, a common connection that you can see with, with your

Nirish Shakya: Okay. So enabling kind of the cross pollination between seemingly uh, disconnected things, seeing those connections,

Saskia Listle: And not.

Nirish Shakya: okay.

Saskia Listle: Not, not looking at them because they don't have an obvious connection.

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. So when I imagine a t shape, I imagine the, the horizontal line at the top, which my understanding is that they have a, a general understanding of the breath, right? The end-to-end breath. But they have a deep specialization in one. And when I, when I visualize a v. [00:26:00] So basically they still have that, like you said, some kind of like the deepest point, which they still specialize in.

Is that correct or There's no specialization at all?

Saskia Listle: Define specialization. That's, that's an interesting, yeah. Um, I do think there is some form of specialization, um, because everybody has some form of favorites, I wanna say like, I would probably be a very bad carpenter. So for me, that focal point will never be carpentry. Um, but again, I might look into, okay, how are carpenters doing stuff? So I do think there is a specialization of sorts, just by the nature of how it boils down to what, what passion does it boil down to? Um, but it's not that clear [00:27:00] track leading to that specialization. It can figure it, maybe it can also, like how a handwriting every V looks different.

So maybe there's like, sometimes it's more tilted towards the right, more tilted towards the left. And also I think it develops over time. 'cause you're starting from two different points at the top that boil down together.

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. And what is the level of granularity of this V we're talking about? Is it at a role level? For example, I might have a role of a UX designer. Within that I have different, um, areas of skills I might need to have, like research, prototyping, testing, you know, visual design and so on. And then, then you might be have a V in that or are we talking about more of a, uh, holistic kind of life skills here?

Saskia Listle: interesting question.

I think we're talking about a both end, but a hierarchy. In a hierarchy. [00:28:00] I think it is more of a personal life view on it that can overlap with the role description. Um, I can be interested in how I can create a good. Experience online, uh, for people and by accident that aligns with what people assume is a UX designer, for example.

Um, I can be interested in putting numbers in an Excel file and analyzing that. And by accident, this is what people think is an accountant. Uh, so, so I think it can be both, but the role description is the result and not the, the actual thing we're striving for. At least that's what I, what I'd like to see it as.

Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. And does that also mean to get that V-shape we have to go deeper in more [00:29:00] areas than in a T shape?

Saskia Listle: I'm struggling a bit with the word must. Um, 'cause you don't have to do anything. It's also to completely fine if that is your passion to go for a T-shaped career. If you just wanna know everything about that one specific topic, have at it. Cool. Great. And I'm not saying T-shaped and V-shaped are things that should fight against each other that are in, in, um, competition with each other and one's better than the other.

Um, so you don't have to do anything. But if you wanna go that way, if that way suits you more, if that is more about how you, how you wanna approach life, I think it comes very natural that you will look. [00:30:00] Allow yourself to look into different areas. Coming back to the how we as a society focus very much on the T shape.

There were a lot of people who don't, who don't allow themselves to look left or right. Um, and I think the moment people allow themselves to also look into whale documentaries, not just as a past time after their job, but because they believe there's, there might be something there that influences what they do now that will automatically open them up and, um, lead them to the V-shaped form.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Okay. I'm kind of also now picturing the diversions and conversions that happens in a double diamond process where I'm starting to see the v V as a way to, you know, divergent open yourself to like all these different topic areas that might be seemingly unrelated to your, you know, specialization.

They might actually help do your job better.

Saskia Listle: Yeah, and you just brought up the, [00:31:00] um, the example. Well, I'm not, I'm not a UX designer in that field. I have probably very low vocabulary around that. But, um, what I know from, from UX design, all those models that you have there, they start with the human right. They start with empathizing with the problem.

Um, but then again, what I see a lot of people doing is saying like, okay, this is what I think from my narrow viewpoint, from my specialized viewpoint, this is what I see, and now let's go out and find people who confirm my opinion on that. Right? So it's also from, from their standpoint, that opening up, empathizing, completely opening up your viewpoint for another viewpoint.

And then in itself, maybe that's the, the kick that they need to actually see themselves in a V-shaped form. I don't know, but yeah, it's. It's, it's interesting how also those, those forms that I know from, from your X design or also the design [00:32:00] thinking process starts with empathizing, um, how they first wanna open up before they

boil it down again.

Mm-hmm.

Nirish Shakya: So they wanna open up into that V

Saskia Listle: Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: of all V could also stand for opening up a viewpoint. I love that.

Saskia Listle: Interesting. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, but that's actually a good question. From a design point, uh, design thinking viewpoint, how would that process in your experience, or how does that process look like in, in your experience once people actually open up and not have their own viewpoints confirmed?

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. I think, um, the, the way it works in the design thinking approach is you intentionally schedule in blocks of the opening up and closing down, opening up [00:33:00] and closing down, depending on what you're trying to do in the process. So, um, you know, If you have a problem, you don't just go straight into the solution in a straight line.

You always open up first. So what else is there? Like, who do we speak to? What are we missing here? What our blind spots? What are risks? What can we learn from other competitors and other analogous services and other industries? Maybe like, just like you said, how can you, what can we maybe learn from whales?

Um, and that I, that would be the divergence in the process. And once we learn what we need to learn, and then we converge into something that is more related or tangible to the problem we're trying to solve, and then diverge again into lots of different ideas and then converge into the best ideas after testing the ideas and see which one works the best.

Saskia Listle: What skills would you say are crucial to that process?

Nirish Shakya: Well, obviously curiosity would be my [00:34:00] number one skill. Um, although it might not look great in the cv, but it works really well in a design process. Otherwise, you know, you might be solving the wrong problem. If you're not curious about what the problem is, the right problem is in the first place. Um, the courage to fail would be another thing that I would look out for because, um, you know, any problem solving process, especially when it comes to solving, uh, wicked problems, right?

Not, not engineering problems or analytical problems, where there is a clear pathway we're talking about like wicked problems that where the goalpost always is shifting. Um, I think in those cases you need that courage to fail because things are ambiguous, uncertain. You don't know where the goalpost is.

You constantly need to be changing your own point of view. Um, and, um, gathering more data, making decisions with that. So, If you don't have the courage to fail, then again, I think [00:35:00] we tend to make quicker decisions just to kind of get to the decision and, and it might end up in the wrong decision. Um, and I think thirdly, I would probably say collaboration would be another one.

You know, it's not the journey you can take, but by yourself. Um, and just like what you said around expanding your viewpoint, the way I tend to do it, or we tend to do it, is to include more people with diverse viewpoints into that journey so that they can help us expand our personal viewpoints and, um, test our own biases and so on.

Um, and so that we can have that cross pollination of, you know, diverse perspectives in the process.

Saskia Listle: So if I take what you were just saying, those three skills, which are all transversal skills, so there was no skill there that said you need to know how to program a button at the right place in the right time. Right. Um, that opens up a whole new field of. [00:36:00] Workers, I wanna say. And that also solves a lot of problems that we're talking about in the world, uh, working world right now.

If you talk about, um, the, the shortage of skilled workers, 'cause what are you looking for in the cv? Again, it comes back to that. And if you're looking for people who are curious, who can collaborate with each other, each other, that opens your space up for quite a lot of people. Um, and that opens your space up for quite a group of diverse people, um, where you have, and suddenly you quote unquote magically solve your diversity problem because you have people in there who are welcome, who can live out the curiosity, who can share their opinion, who can work together on to solving that problem.

So just opening up that view to the transversal skills also solves your problems in those areas as well. Um, and suddenly you get [00:37:00] completely different work results and it doesn't need a machine to do that. It doesn't need the, um, AI that scans your cvs for that. Just need to go out and listen to people just again, quote unquote, this sounds easier than it is, but um, yeah, it, it's, the difference is probably, and, and that's probably also the same in the, with the design thinking approach, it forces you to look at the problem differently.

Um, before anybody did design thinking, there was always says, I know what the client wants. And suddenly there somebody comes along and says, do you though, and introduces the method of, let's, let's stick with the, uh, example of design thinking comes with that process that says, And then let's see if you really know what, what they want.

Right. And maybe, or, or also that [00:38:00] takes away the pressure. 'cause suddenly you don't have to know anymore. You go out there and you ask people, um, and they will tell you what they want. They might not always know what they want. That's a different problem, but at least they will tell you what they think of the problem.

You don't have to know, you don't have to assume and against what you are. Mostly hearing those well, but it's so insecure and we don't know what they want or they don't know what they want. It actually also takes a lot of insecurity away from you. 'cause if you assume, what do you really know? What happens down the road?

Chances are you don't. Um, so you're suddenly just, just by opening your hiring process up for. Is that person curious? Can that person talk to other people? Can they collaborate? Is that a good team configuration? You solve a bunch of problems that where you're always moaning about when you're talking to other CEOs.[00:39:00]

Nirish Shakya: There was a, a quote that came across recently, I think it's by Socrates, I think, um, I might be wrong, but said, um, wisdom is knowing that you don't know anything. 'cause it's the, the certainty of knowledge that leads us down the wrong path a lot of times. 'cause we're so, so sure of what the right problem and the right solution might be.

That we don't have, feel the need to. Yeah. Diverge. Look around, like you said, look at other viewpoints.

Saskia Listle: yeah. It's wisdom is applied knowledge over time. Um, And that's also, if you look back into the, the digital or the, the technological advantages. If you think of ai, for example, we're always talking about knowledge workers right now. Uh, when like white collar workers, that term has kind of been replaced [00:40:00] with knowledge workers now, right?

Uh, people who know stuff, but how much are they actually worth? Now that chat, G P t also knows everything where chat G P T can in an

Nirish Shakya: be more things.

Saskia Listle: crawl Google and give you the answer. Um, so do we have to update that term? Maybe do we have to talk about wisdom workers now? And what does that imply

Nirish Shakya: Mm. 

Saskia Listle: And because that implies exactly that thing, of course, you know a lot of stuff because of course you still have that information in your head, but you also need to now put in that time element, that knowledge that gets.

Reaffirmed or that gets changed because of new information over time. Um, and also it takes a, a mental effort, as you said, to know that you don't know stuff. Um, again, I'm, I'm taking chat g p t now quite all quite a bit, I have to admit. Um, I don't wanna [00:41:00] point them out specifically 'cause the other AI systems are technically the same.

But, um, we know about that. We've used that also in, in our personal settings, most of us. Um, so how often do you type something in, you're like, now that doesn't sound right, and then you do do a Google research anding, that actually that movie doesn't exist or that book doesn't even exist. That author isn't even an author.

Um, so there's that chat GT is kind of the, the confident. Worker that you have that always puts stuff out and you know Exactly. He's full of bullshit. Um, that's what chat g p t is about right now. Right. So,

Nirish Shakya: Especially when it, like what they call hallucinates.

Saskia Listle: Yeah. Although I read an interesting article just today, um, where that brought up an interesting theory saying, is it really chat g p t, that hallucinates, or is it their founders?

Their creators that hallucinate? Because there's also that, that idea of [00:42:00] how does that system work? It always works within the biases of the people who create it. Right?

Um,

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. So are you saying that, um, AI might have the knowledge, but it does not have the wisdom?

Saskia Listle: I am thinking because I might be held accountable to what I'm saying now in a few years. I would say at this point. 'cause you can never tell with the, with the digital transformation efforts and the adv, uh, the advancements that it takes, um, at this point I would say it can't, because it doesn't have the time component. Um, might completely change down the road. But at this point, I don't think it has what we would call wisdom. Um, if you. You could make the example with yourself. Um, and, [00:43:00] and with the listeners who are listening right now to this, think about if chat g p t were a person, how would you picture them?

What would be the embodiment of chat G p T? And I would say you don't imagine them or I don't imagine them as that old person sitting in front of their poage gray or white hair that you have an awesome conversation with. And they'd say, well, you know, this was how it was when I was younger. It developed over that.

And then you just have a conversation and something new comes out of that from the experiences over time. I don't picture chat gpt as being that person. Not now, not, not right now. It might grow with us. Um, and it might become that gray person. Um, right now I don't picture it like that.

Nirish Shakya: Yep.

Saskia Listle: it's more the [00:44:00] annoying overconfident coworker.

Nirish Shakya: That likes to regurgitate what it, whatever it

Saskia Listle: Right, right. Yeah. And I'm not saying that is not useful. I do use Chap g p t as well. Um, the question is what do you use it for and how much do you take what it says as.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. So let's, let's come back to, come back to the human. So we've been talking about different shapes, the T shape, v, v shape. Um, how would you recommend someone, we'll start by identifying what is their current shape and how can they then decide what would be the right shape for them to, um, adopt moving forwards.

Saskia Listle: Again, it comes down to the curiosity. Um, [00:45:00] curiosity probably is the foundation of everything. Um, 'cause what gives you the motivation to go down a path if you don't have the curiosity. Um, and maybe if you curiously follow the path that you wanna follow. It doesn't matter if you're T-shaped or V-shaped.

Um, I know I brought that up. Now that I think about it, why, why even press us in a form Right? Um, I think generally in, in what we do, and, and we're also seeing that more and more in our time. It's, it's a sign of our times to look into what do you really want? Um, the, the mantra of new work. What do you really, really, really want? Right? Um,

and whatever you really, really, really want will then form the [00:46:00] shape that you wanna have. Um, and I wouldn't start with with putting yourself, I wanna be a t shape and this is why I have to specialize on this. Or just run with what you like and see where you end up.

Nirish Shakya: I like that. So kind of like letting your curiosity lead you.

Saskia Listle: Uh, yeah, exactly. Um, just listening to yourself and, and sit down and say like, if I could learn whatever I want to, if I could talk about Philosoph, about whatever I wanna, what would that be? And then just run.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. I think what, uh, what would be helpful is yeah, let you know, curiosity lead you, but at the same time have some kind of framework around which you can start to build. It's like, you know, little Tetris blocks kind of falling into, into place, into like a T shape or a V two V shape, depending on where that curiosity takes you.

But at the same [00:47:00] time, Um, be a bit more intentional about it rather than just, you know, being curious about everything that comes your way. Maybe a bit more intentionality will help you focus more, um, and help you get to the things that give you the joint meaning faster, maybe. 

Saskia Listle: I think that's, A question of philosophy. Um, do you wanna plan ahead? Are you somebody who likes to plan again, know yourself there, or is it completely fine for you to look back and see, okay, what do I have now?

And what could that align to? Um, because if you're the second person who says like, okay, let's see where this takes me and then I'll boil it down later. Just looking out at whatever comes your way is completely fine if you wanna plan ahead because maybe you have another life goal that you wanna, um, [00:48:00] approach with that. I would say it help, or at least what, what helps me a lot there is. Sitting down and writing. And I don't mean that in a write an essay about that, but just sit down and jot down some things like what is important to me right now? Uh, what am I curious about? Again, I'm coming back to that quite a lot. Um, is what I'm doing right now, does it seem to me like it will bring me where I wanna be?

And just regularly check in on that and see how that aligns with what you think and what you wanna think. Um, and if it does call, go on. If it doesn't look left or right, okay, if that single block doesn't work for me right now, or it has developed into something that doesn't work anymore, how can I divert from that?

Um, and I think a very [00:49:00] important point there is to be graceful with yourself, not. Think like, oh, this doesn't work for me anymore. So it never worked. That's the wrong approach. Um, be graceful with yourself and say, okay, it doesn't work anymore, but at some point I was sure it would bring me somewhere. So what did I learn from that as well?

So even though you're having a more of a forward looking approach and a more planned approach, it's still important to look back and see how that might, um, have aligned with what you're actually doing. Um, yeah. And not, not beating yourself down for taking something or doing something that doesn't obviously fit in the plan or that seem to be stupid decision.

Um, yeah.

Nirish Shakya: So having like a, a growth mindset that allows you to, you know, experiment and fail and learn from it and try something

Saskia Listle: Yeah. I don't necessarily use the term growth mindset [00:50:00] because it always has that thing it has to go forward. It has to visually go forward. Not everything that actually brings you forward does look like it brings you forward. It's not always that higher for the faster, so I tend to shy away from the term growth mindset, 

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. What would you call it?

Saskia Listle: what would I call it?

That's a good question. Yeah. I, I, now that I think about it, I, I like the term graceful mindset.

Nirish Shakya: A

Saskia Listle: Mm-hmm. Because you are graceful with yourself and the moment you accept whatever decision you took, whatever step you took, when you accept that, that's where growth happens. Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: So sort of like being kind to yourself.

Saskia Listle: Completely.

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. I like that Rather than constantly focusing on 

Saskia Listle: Yeah. [00:51:00]

Nirish Shakya: growth. could also mean, you know, falling forwards or taking two, two steps forward, one step backwards.

Sometimes. 

Saskia Listle: it could also mean taking an uh, uh, a conscious step back saying like, no, this isn't for me anymore. I'm taking a step back and making the decision to take a step back.

Nirish Shakya: Mm-hmm. Nice. I like that. So let's look into the future. What do you think are the top three skills that you would want to invest your time and energy on right now? To build.

Saskia Listle: Well, if you haven't noticed yet, I'm all in for curiosity. So, yeah, I think curiosity is key and center because it's also a driver for everything else. Um,[00:52:00]

the second that I would focus on is, how do I say that Complex thinking. And I don't mean that in a, we have to make our thinking complicated. We don't have to think our over 15 corners, but more stepping away from always looking for the easy answer, being open to more complex ideas, um, being open to not having it, a straightforward line.

Um, Enjoying the idea of maybe going past three corners, entertaining the idea of not going from A to B directly, but okay, what other route can I take? Um, and[00:53:00] that also comes with an idea of it doesn't always have to be super efficient. Letting go of that efficiency mindset, um, comes with complex thinking capabilities. Um, and the third one is communication. Learning how to communicate with another, learning what words I use, why I use them. Learning what communication does, um, thinking for example here, um, of how can you make communication less hurtful, uh, or clean language, all of those [00:54:00] buzzwords and, and bullet points. Because I also think that if you can communicate what you need, what you want, and what you think in a good way, and everybody can do that, this is where good collaboration happens. Um, so yeah. So if I would have to pick three, I think it would be those three. Um, curiosity, complex thinking and commu, uh, communication.

Yeah,

Nirish Shakya: I love that.

Saskia Listle: they're all C words. I just noticed.

Nirish Shakya: I was just noting that as well. Um, and also the thing you mentioned around communication is something that, um, reminded me of, uh, you know, non-violent 

Saskia Listle: Mm-hmm. 

Nirish Shakya: Um, that there's also a book by Rosen Feels something, but he will, we'll put the link in the, in the show notes as well, uh, in terms of how you can express your needs nonviolently [00:55:00] without making the other people other person, you know, feel bad about it or, you know, you yourself feeling bad about it and doing more constructively and positively.

And I think that's something that, yeah, we all do need to learn, not just the workplace, but also in our personal lives as

Saskia Listle: My favorite example for that, when people ask me, can I be brutally honest? I say, no, you can't. 'cause why does honesty need to be brutal? 

You can't be honest with me at any time, but you can't be brutal. Um, so yeah, how do we learn the difference, uh, with that? How do we learn how to be honest and be gentle with each other?

Nirish Shakya: Mm. Yeah. There was another book I was reading called, uh, radical Candor. Have you, have you read that one? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of talks about that kind of honesty, you know, being radical, uh, radically candor to, to people. Um, great. So now let's use this concept of skills. But imagine Saskia you are [00:56:00] stuck in a desert island somewhere.

You have all your basic needs met, like food, water, shelter, what three skills that you'd bring with you onto that island.

Saskia Listle: Well, the first thing that popped into my mind might just eradicate everything that I said in the last hour. 'cause the first one would be, I'd like to build an internet connection to the mainland. Um, Because I, I, I do like the internet. The internet is such a vast source of knowledge and wisdom and ideas, and I just love that.

I love diving into that and being inspired by others or being challenged by others. Um, reading something, thinking about that and saying, okay, how does this align with what I think? How does that maybe contradict what I think? How can I bring that together? Does [00:57:00] it change my thing? All of those things. I, I just love that.

Um, so yeah, I'd probably build an internet connection. Um, what's good? Well, the, the, the, the hard part for me to answer this right now is because a lot of the skills that I think of. Might not necessarily work when I'm alone on an island. Um, I, again, the curiosity probably helps because there might be things I figure out on that island that I can do. They might not be basic needs, but I might learn to play music on coconut shells.

Um, because I need to entertain myself. Um, maybe I need to communicate with animals. I don't, I'm, I'm thinking of that, that, um, how is it Castaway where he starts [00:58:00] talking to the ball? Wilson?

Nirish Shakya: Tom Hanks.

Saskia Listle: Yeah. Um, but there's nothing, at least in, in, in my personal way. Here's the thing. It's my personal preference that I would need on a deserted island without other people.

Um, but then also I like the interaction with people. So, um, I would probably just die miserably because, um, I have, I just have my coconut shells there and, uh, yeah,

Nirish Shakya: Yeah, you might make friends with some animals there on the 

Saskia Listle: maybe, um, not sure if there are cats available. I, I, I can be pretty good with cats. Um, but yeah, again, that is, that is a very, very, um, individual viewpoint. Other people, um, might actually really be, uh, interested in, okay, how can I grow things there? [00:59:00] How can I take that coconut and actually grow other coconut trees outta it, or, yeah, so again, figuring that out individually is, is a very

Nirish Shakya: Cool.

Saskia Listle: important part There.

Nirish Shakya: Nice. And um, what about skills that we need to learn to let go of as we move into the future?

Saskia Listle: Are you meaning skills we need to forget or skills to so that we let go of stuff.

Nirish Shakya: Skills that we need, we don't need in the future anymore, maybe that we value 

Saskia Listle: Mm-hmm. I'm not sure if I would consider them skills. We like to call them skills, for example, that growth mindset. Um, or if there are more functions of the skills we use, um, Again, I, I [01:00:00] don't think or, or no, let me start that differently. I think we should stop talking about growth. I don't think that's healthy in a lot of the, uh, applications that we do.

Um, if we look in the envir environmental problems that we're run into, into, uh, company problems that we look into, into mental states, there's a lot being dependent on the pressure we put on ourselves because of growth mindsets in one way or another. Um, and I think we need to let go of that. We need to be more gentle with ourselves, um, and we need to be more realistic about what we can actually do and what we wanna achieve.

Um, and a lot of that has to do with letting of the idea, uh, letting go of the idea of growth. Um, That's, I think, a crucial part. 'cause the moment we take away that pressure, [01:01:00] uh, it's, it's basically like a, like a concrete jacket that we have on all the time. And the moment we take that off and we're like, okay, I don't have to grow, neither me personally, I don't have to grow, I don't have to be a better person every time.

And better not just being the gentle version of better, but like higher, further, faster, better. Um, the moment we take away that pressure and let people breathe, there's a lot of energy that suddenly becomes free. And that can take us way further than with that pressured form of growth that we talk about.

So yeah, if that's, that's, I wanna say one of the critical things. Um, but again, I'm not sure if it is an actual skill or if it's more a function of those.

Nirish Shakya: That's, that's certainly not what I was expecting to hear, but that is extremely deep and I do find it very, uh, resonant, [01:02:00] um, with, you know, what I've been thinking of a lot lately as well in terms of, you know, it's, it so goes against our own conditioning that we constantly have to be learning, learning and growing and getting faster, better, um, and so on.

But maybe the, the challenge is to just learn to be, just be who you are right now. Just appreciate that. Uh, there's a, there's a quote I heard recently which says something like, um, your purpose in life is not to, um, accomplish things. Your purpose in life is to experience them. Um, and I thought that was a really, um, you know, poignant in terms of like, yeah, like, you know, even in my career I've focused most of my time and energy on just constantly, you know, achieving and accomplishing all these milestones, but.

The more you climb the ladder, the more you realize, you know, it's, it's pretty lonely up there. Right? Um, and it's not really what gives you [01:03:00] that true joy and meaning. So, kind of coming back to what you said here around letting your curiosity lead you, um, which then organically builds that shape for you, uh, might be the way to then, um, not worry too much about growth, but more about just Yeah.

Experiencing your life and your work as, as it comes to 

Saskia Listle: Yeah. And I wanna come, you said in the introduction or, or fairly much at the beginning. I have a podcast, um, and where we talk about soft skills and transversal skills and future skills, uh, where I talk about that with different guests who have different, uh, backgrounds, different focuses, um, different expertise.

What I see as one of the overlapping topics is always we need to be more gentle with ourselves. That's the [01:04:00]overarching topic that I see in all of those skills. We need to be more gentle with ourselves because also it comes down to, to the belief I have with those skills that they're the foundation of everything.

They're not a top, well in, in the term how we use it. Hard skills versus soft skills. We always tell as hard skills is the basic, that's what we need. And then the soft skills are something on top that are nice to have when in fact, in, in my opinion, it's different. It's, it's the other way around. It's the soft skills at the foundation, it's our transversal skills at the foundation and they, they, um, shine into everything we do.

If we don't have the transversal skills at the foundation, we couldn't do our technical skills. Um, And I also believe that most of those transversal skills we already have in us, but we, again, coming down to the concrete jacket that we put on, we put those height skills on it and expect them to carry us while we put more [01:05:00] and more focus and more and more weight on those height skills.

So the moment you take away that pressure, there's a lot, again, a lot of energy coming outta that, a lot of energy being freed from that. And suddenly those transversal skills, they can shine. They can take us to places where we didn't even know we could go. Um, and I, I was just watching the third season of Tadd lasso the TV show.

Um, and to, to everybody who has access to that, I would definitely recommend to watch that because it is exactly that. The setting is, you have a football trainer in an English Premier League club. They start out as, I don't know, what's the second league in England? Um, They start out as a lower league, but then at some point make the leap into the Premier League.

And you know how hard the Premier League is, right? You know how hard it is on trainers, on players, on managers, on everybody in those clubs. It's always about [01:06:00] money and winning and being the best. You need to win the Premier League. You need to win the Champions League, you need to get into a national team.

That's your reputation as football, right? And Tad lasso comes into that club and just with gentleness and allowing people to feel, and with creating a safe space where people can thrive, he takes the club further than any other manager could have taken it. It's an excellent example about how kindness, how gentleness, I'm not sure if that is a word, um, but you get me.

Um, How that can actually free up energy that makes you do your job way better than if you act under the pressure of everything around it. And I can hundred percent just recommend for people to watch that. It's an excellent series.

Nirish Shakya: I love that it's already on my [01:07:00] playlist now, so I'm definitely gonna watch that. So thanks for recommending that. And we'll also put a link, uh, in the show notes as well. So, um, Saskia, imagine it's your last day on earth and you're on your deathbed and someone comes up to you type with a tiny piece of Post-it and a Sharpie and you to write your last few words for humanity.

What would you write on?

Saskia Listle: so the funny answer would probably be so long and thanks for all the fish. Um, probably, yeah. And by now I obviously learned to fish. Um, um, I don't know. I don't, when I'm asked that question, I'm having a hard time answering it because it makes me focus on what can I give the world? What kind of wisdom can I give the world? And that is a very big, um, ask. I'm not sure [01:08:00] if I'm the one giving anything to the world. I hope to leave a good place. Um, I'm trying to live my life in a way that leaves the least footprint.

Um, and I'm hoping I can inspire some people by what I do and how I do it. Um, so that's probably the, so long part. Um,

Nirish Shakya: That's not gonna fit on the poster.

Saskia Listle: yeah. Have fun and be curious. I think that I could fit on a post-it.

Nirish Shakya: I think so. Awesome. Thanks Saskia. Um, lemme do a quick recap of the amazing conversations we had. Um, so

Saskia Listle: Can I ask you a question before you get into that?

Nirish Shakya: yeah,

Saskia Listle: What would you write on a post-it?

Nirish Shakya: what would I write on a post-it? Um, I think based on what I've learned in the last [01:09:00] hour talking to you, I would say just be

Saskia Listle: Mm. Oh,

Nirish Shakya: so, not just do it or just grow. Just just be,

Saskia Listle: I steal that? Once I'm on my

death deathbed and somebody hands me the sharp and the post-its. I can, I can give credits to you if you want to. 

I like 

Nirish Shakya: Yeah, I mean, we can, we can share the credit here.

Saskia Listle: it's cool.

Nirish Shakya: Uh, we can, we can credit this episode of our conversation, but, um, I, I, I loved, um, how it all kind of, yeah, started with that curiosity mindset, which seems to be such a, what you say, like transversal skill, soft skill that can be used, uh, you know, wherever you are, whatever you're doing.

And that can be the thing that can shape like your own shape as whether as a professional, as an employee, or, you know, as someone who exists in the world, um, rather than [01:10:00] trying to force a shape for yourself. Um, and also, although we did talk about, you know, the difference between being a um, generalist, um, or a specialist, uh, there is no one right way.

Like what is right is what's right for you and what. It gives you that sense of meaning and curiosity when it comes to what you wanna learn about and do in the world. Um, also I loved how you rephrased growth mindset as graceful mindset. 'cause we don't need to be growing and progressing and getting faster and better and harder all the time.

And I, I absolutely loved how you said it. Sometimes, you know, it is about maybe taking a step back or taking multiple steps back or maybe stopping and slowing down as well. Um, and ultimately, yeah, [01:11:00] allowing yourself, um, to take off that straight jacket or that concrete jacket that you've been put on in terms of what you should be do in the world and see where, where, where that takes you, um, by being.

Graceful and, and gentle to yourself. Um, yeah, so many things for me to take away there, um, that I myself need to practice more consciously than I have not done, um, enough. So thank you so much, Saskia, for sharing your wisdom, your knowledge, and your perspectives on the skills that we need for the future.

Saskia Listle: And thank you for boiling down my ideas so perfectly and, uh, synthesizing them so well. I know sometimes I can go off the weeds and then it might sound like I'm all over the place, but you did a perfect job summing uh, summing that up. So yeah, thank you very

Nirish Shakya: [01:12:00] Thank you. I wasn't aiming for perfection, I was just aiming to just be curious and see what that takes.

Saskia Listle: Excellent. Lesson one check.

Nirish Shakya: Cool. Cool. I'm, I'm already starting to see my V-shape grow a bit here, so thank you. Thank you for helping me do that. Well not grow, just, just be, just be great. Well, thank you so much for joining me on Design Feeling today, Saskia. Um, and, um, yeah, if you'd like people to follow you or find you online or connect with you, um, how.

Saskia Listle: Yeah. Uh, the most, uh, foolproof way also for me to actually be able to notice it and respond to you is LinkedIn. Um, that's just a go-to platform for me. Uh, so either you find me under Suski Lister, that's my name, uh, I guess, but it's also in shadow, uh, or the, the company account for the Academy of Future Skills.[01:13:00]

Um, yep. Just look for that on LinkedIn. Drop me a note. Um, refer to the podcast so I know, uh, why you're sending me a request or a message. Um, but that's basically all the requirements. Yep. Just reach out. I'd be happy to, to chat to everybody who wants to, I'm curious about everybody out there.

Nirish Shakya: And you mentioned that also you have a, uh, you'd like talk about the community of practice.

Saskia Listle: Yes. Yeah. Uh, we're just starting out with the Academy of Future Skills to actually bring people together to talk about that stuff, uh, with each other and learn about that stuff with each other. Um, and so, yeah, here's the invitation for everybody, uh, to go to the website academy future skills com, um, and follow the link to the discord there.

Um, join the community. Uh, yeah, and it's basically a. Everybody's invited. Everybody's, uh, welcome in the space as long as they're curious enough to [01:14:00] go along for the ride. Um, and wanna share themselves. I wanna learn something from other people to really get the, the knowledge in the community to grow.

'cause I, I talk a lot about it, but I'm only one mind and I probably do not have, well, not, not just probably, I definitely do not have all the knowledge and also not all the wisdom. So I'm, uh, curious to hear what comes out when other people talk about that. And that's what the community is for.

Nirish Shakya: Awesome. And, um, if you are interested in hearing about SAIC's conversations with lots of different experts on different future skills, please do check out her podcast at academy future skills com. Um, and, um, you can also listen to our conversation that we had on self-awareness as a, a skill as well. Thank so much and um, I.

Saskia Listle: Yes. Looking forward to that. Thanks for having me today.

​

Nirish Shakya: Thank you so much for spending your [01:15:00] time with us during this conversation. It means a lot to me and I really wanna make sure that this time is worthwhile to you. So please take a moment to think about one thing this conversation has helped you see differently. And if you'd like, you can also email it to me as well. I'd love to know what's useful and what's not so useful so that I can iterate future episodes for you. 

Until next time, keep exploring and keep growing. But remember to take the time for recovery and reflection. I'm Nirish Shakya, and this has been The Design Feeling Podcast. See you next time.