Know your unique strengths for your own wellbeing and peace with Kate Berry

Kate Berry: [00:00:00] I think another thing that was so important to me is recognizing where one of your strengths is being stifled. That really hurt my wellbeing more so than playing to a lesser strength. I felt playing to a lesser strength was just I'm tired, I'm exhausted, that was hard work. But the feeling of frustration of not being able to use a strength that's knocking at the door every day was really, I found that quite damaging to my mental health.

Shivaun: This is the Design Feeling Podcast with your host Nirish Shakya. 

Nirish Shakya: Hello. My name is Nirish Shakya and I'm a human-centered designer, educator and coach. And this is a podcast for well, human-centered designers and innovators and problem solvers who tend to forget the human within the. The conversations you'll hear will help you [00:01:00] increase your self-awareness and creative confidence so that you can make the impact that gives you the joy and meaning that you seek.

Let's get started. 

So my guest today is Kate Berry, and Kate is an instructor manager at General Assembly. And she's also my boss and my strengths coach because I teach at General Assembly. And Kate has been helping me to identify my own unique strengths. And in the process, she's enabled me to be more at peace with myself when it comes to things that I can do easily and things I can't, or maybe I shouldn't do.

rather than trying to be good at everything. And that's the narrative that we get sold from pretty early on, you know, from your parents, from your school, that you've got to be good at everything. You got to be good at maths and science and arts and dance. Everything, right? The thing is, us humans are [00:02:00] very unique beings with a very unique set of strengths.

And when we try to be good at everything, it causes a lot of stress. So, Kate, she's really amazing at helping people identify these unique permutation and combination of strengths within them and leverage them to, like I said, be. and feel more at peace. Kate Berry, welcome to Design Feeling.

Kate Berry: Thank you. What an amazing intro. Um, yeah, I'm really, really happy to be here and speaking about something that I absolutely love. Very passionate about, as you now know, um, can talk about it all day. So we'll try to keep to, uh, to time otherwise, might be your longest episode yet.

Nirish Shakya: We love long episodes here. Um, you know, the deeper we can go into these topics. I think the, the more that I learned from this and the more that our listeners learn from it. Kate Imagine that [00:03:00] your life is a movie. So let's say someone decided to make a movie out of your life Where would that movie start? 

Kate Berry: it would be an inner monologue of some sorts. There would have to be some sort of like, uh, inside scoop to my, to my daydreamy type brain, I would imagine. Probably one where, yeah, like when you read a book and you get the inner narratives, but they have like, different characters, you know, so they were, and the little characters were almost like kind of fighting with each other sometimes or chatting over each other.

Probably start with that and then real me going, ah,

Nirish Shakya: What would you be daydreaming about?

Kate Berry: um, to be honest, usually something I've just done or something that I'm going to be doing later. It's very, uh, infrequently in the present. Which is something I try to work on, but yeah, it's often, Ah, I can't believe I just did that. I just said this silly thing. Uh, or, Hmm, what will I do when I get home?

[00:04:00] Hmm, I might make a sandwich, you know. Very, uh, very exciting stuff.

Nirish Shakya: Speaking of doing things, um, you've done dance. I think one of your, like, your undergrad was in dance, was it?

Kate Berry: Yeah, dance and digital media. So it's a contemporary style and it's focused on choreography.

Nirish Shakya: Mm hmm.

Kate Berry: I can't, uh, Can't proclaim to be much of a dancer, but, uh, I tried, but it was more the choreography side of contemporary dance that I was interested in, so like creating new movement and improvising, messing around.

Nirish Shakya: And then what strength did you use for that?

Kate Berry: So at the time, I would not have realized what strengths I was using, but that was lost on me, but, um, uh, my, my top strength is ideation. So it makes a lot of sense that I was more interested in, creating movement. Um, and I remember this really poignant, like, moment where I, I came home and I was having a particularly difficult day, um, at dance, uh, because my technique was [00:05:00] awful.

And, uh, I was upset with my mom because I was like, Oh, why didn't you make me do ballet or something when I was younger? And then, you know, like learning, uh, a language when you're younger, it's just all easier and trying to learn it. I think I started dancing at like sort of 15, quite a lot older than a lot of people start.

So I was a bit raged. I was like, Oh, I'm finding it really, really difficult to do the technical stuff. But kind to

blame on mum. And she just quickly responded with. I did take you to ballet and you hated it. So I was like, oh! I didn't even remember that. Um, so yeah, it's kind of reflecting back, noticing the difference of dancing something really technical where I have to follow exactly that move very perfectly versus choreography in something like contemporary, which is like Do what you want, look how you like, um, and very, very creative.

So, um, [00:06:00] ideation, definitely when I did the strengths test and realized I had that was, yeah, suddenly kind of flashing back to like loads of moments in my life and dance being one of them and going, that makes a lot of sense now.

Nirish Shakya: hmm. Yeah, so, so often, like, you know, we don't realize what strengths that we naturally have. And it's only when we kind of, you know, reflect on what we've done and things that we can do easily, or maybe do something like a strengths. Profile test that we actually realize. Oh, yeah, that actually makes sense now.

Um, so from dance you went into finance I mean, they probably they rhyme i'm assuming that's not why you went into finance

Kate Berry: I just

like 

Nirish Shakya: us about that journey

Kate Berry: that ends in ants. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, yeah. So there's a, there's a little bit of sort of. roles in between that. But I think, uh, I call out the kind of dance to finance, um, kind of as, as two very opposing. Um, sort of parts of my life, um, because it was [00:07:00] in finance that I actually got to learn about strengths, which was, was brilliant.

Um, and got to kind of understand ideations, for example, uh, understand how. Something that when I first learned about it, made sense for me as a choreographer and I thought, oh, hang on. Have I messed up here? Should I have stayed in that, that kind of space. Um, why am I in finance What's this creative strength gonna be good for here?

You know? Um, and then, you know, really learning about it and understanding. Um, obviously it doesn't, it's not a role specific thing, strengths aren't, so, um, it was kind of just how I get to contribute my ideation in, in anything that I'm doing. Um, so in the role that I was doing then, um, which was mostly managing people and creating training, how my ideation was translating from creation, I guess, um, in one respect to another.

And it really helped [00:08:00] me make peace with letting go of. Uh, the dance side because it was always a difficult kind of thing, you know, I really want to do that. I struggled to kind of make that a full time part of my life and then, you know, you think I did it as a degree, I did it as a postgrad and now I'm not doing it in my life.

Is that a failure of some sort? Um, and lots of people will say to me, oh, do you miss, do you miss it? And I think I didn't really. And now I kind of understand why, because as long as I'm getting to put my strengths into. a different sort of space, that's what's making me happy. Um, so the, the dance was like an outlet that suited me at the time to get me to use and probably help, um, form, uh, my ideation.

Whereas now I feel like I get to still do it every day and in what I do at work or what I do at home in my personal life and doesn't have to be restricted to,

Nirish Shakya: So [00:09:00] basically you are using this the strengths that you used in dance and then kind of transferring that across to You know finance and and what you do now, so, you know, nothing goes to waste

Kate Berry: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And realizing, you know, that creativity is pretty broad, um, um, you know, and applying that to problem solving as a, as a good example, I just thought, well, why do people come to me? Um, quite a lot, you know, I always thought, thought of myself for, for friends as quite a go to person. And again, I think that's that creative problem solving.

Oh, I'm stuck. Oh, we tried this and we tried that. Um, you know, so just starting to kind of recognize it in a in all sorts of parts of your life and then realizing, Oh, okay, I can, I can kind of get it anywhere if I put my mind to it and kind of make that time and space for it or ask permission to kind of be involved in things that help me do that wherever I am.

Nirish Shakya: So we have been talking about strengths, um, but people might be wondering what the hell they're just talking about. [00:10:00] Could you maybe give us a strengths profile 101 as to what did you mean by that?

Kate Berry: Absolutely. Yeah. So I'll try to keep it brief because this is where my passion will run away with me. Um, But yeah, I mean at work, you know, you, you know, typically come across a couple of, um, tools for sort of helping you understand different personality profiles, such as, you know, Myers Briggs. People have often heard of insights, things like that.

So CliftonStrengths, you know, is, is a similar thing and, and something I had put in that box. I remember when I first took the test, I had that initial buzz of, Oh yeah, you know, an old profile. It says I've got this. It felt really accurate. Then I was like, what do you do with it? You know, it's. It stays on a page.

So, you know, it kind of bit cynical about it. Like, um, how, how right can it really be just from doing a test and stuff? And, um, yeah, I kind of sat on it for a while. Just was something I did at work because they were like, do this thing at work. Um, and then I can't [00:11:00] really remember what got me into, I think maybe some of the, the friends that.

work at the time and then kind of run a little bit more started to kind of build and then was like actually I think this could be really useful and I think especially where I was working at the time I just felt like this could be really great actually right now I think bringing people together um and understanding each other I felt like the understanding piece was important at that time so then I sort of um I reached out to our organizational development team at the time and I was really fortunate to meet someone who was a big influence on me and who coached me.

So I was like, you know, What does it do? Is it any good? And she was like, yes. Oh my gosh. Let me, uh, you know, let me show you. And, and, um, so I was very lucky in that I think because I got to do some, some one on one tailored, um, coaching on it. It was like, Oh, this is brilliant. Um, so. [00:12:00] What is it? It's, it's a test you, you take, um, and it's quite an intense test, I would say, and then it will give you a personalized report, um, of, if you do the full report, it will give you 34 strengths in an, in a particular order that is unique to you.

A lot of people do the top five and a lot of people in workplaces do the top five. So that's to manage. Um, and obviously they're your top. So the higher up they are, the more natural they are to you. And they're described as, um, sort of naturally occurring thoughts, feelings, and ways of behaving. And it's through the company Gallup. So yes, you get the first night's report, you see what order they're in. Um, and. the likelihood of the top five being in the same order as another person is one in 33 million, which I remember thinking was, was crazy. I can't even do that kind of maths. Um, but it was [00:13:00] fascinating to think, well, it's only 34. How can it be that unique? Um, so really learning The don't be on the word. So you, you get your head around the word and then you kind of think everybody who's got the same worded strength as you must have the same thing, you know, and then realizing and understanding, no, not really. And it could look completely different to yours.

So my ideation compared to somebody else's will be entirely different. Um, and that's cause they're a completely different person. Um, these things are really, you know, humans are complex and, um. The strengths that sit around theirs, the experiences that they've had in their life, their personal interests, their hobbies will be driving a very, very different looking strength to mind.

But then equally, we're going to probably have really similar things as well, which is always lovely because you're probably going to both have an interest in being creative. So yeah, it kind of gives you a tool, I would say, more so than a [00:14:00] label to kind of Think about how do I understand myself? How do I understand other people?

And it feels never ending feels like something that is always learning more and more like I've been I think I did the test in 2016 and I feel like I'm still learning today. So I think that that's what I really love about it is your work is never done.

You're still learning about even your own ones that you would imagine you. knew everything about by now. Um, but you're always changing, they're always changing people in your lives, et cetera. But I find it fascinating, like other people's and learning about theirs and their relation to yours and all of it really.

Nirish Shakya: Well, tell us, what are your top five strengths?

Kate Berry: Ah, yeah. So mine are ideation, strategic input, learner, and intellection.

Nirish Shakya: And what does that mean?

Kate Berry: yes, good question. So that, that's a lot of, um, thinking strength. So there are four domains that the 34 [00:15:00] strengths sit into. Um, so you've got executing, relationship building, influencing, and strategic thinking. Um, they're not evenly spread, obviously, if anyone's good at maths out there.

Uh, so there's slightly less, I think there's one less, uh, strategic thinking and influencing. And then, you know, one more, uh, executing relationship building. Um, there's no wrong or right with what your mix is. But for me, I lead with. thinking strengths. So I have, yeah, those as my top five. And then it starts to get a little bit more, uh, bit more colorful, uh, because they're sort of colored in the chart as we go into say the top 10, top 15, but yeah, look, look very, um, they're very thinking heavy at first glance.

Nirish Shakya: Mm hmm, mm hmm. Because mine, um, you probably know mine, mine is um, Connectedness, Learner, Woo, Futuristic, and Includer. Those are my top five.

Kate Berry: Which is a very nice mix. You have, um, [00:16:00] you know, you've got, uh, relationship building coming from Encuda, you've got Woo, uh, I always get Woo envy as we've spoken about Naresh. I don't have

high 

Nirish Shakya: trying to do right now. Hahaha.

Kate Berry: Yeah, so you've, you've got, you've got a complete mix in there, really. So, uh, with futuristic, um, and learner, you've got your strategic thinking, um, as I just explained, and then connectedness, again, relationship building. So, uh, I think maybe executing's, yeah, probably the only

Nirish Shakya: Yeah, I only have like one executing strength in the entire top ten, which is, um, Restorative.

Kate Berry: starter.

Nirish Shakya: a problem, yeah, it's like a problem solving skill.

Kate Berry: Yes. Yeah. Also, also one I don't have and, uh, and yeah,

Nirish Shakya: But yeah,

Kate Berry: yeah, I, I

Nirish Shakya: I was a bit annoyed to find that, you know, I don't have many executing skills. But like you said, even if you don't have a particular strength, [00:17:00] you can still like use other strengths that you do have. To achieve a similar kind of outcome tell us more about how that works

Kate Berry: Yes, that's something, um, I found, uh, really fascinating was I think you go through a bit of a, a journey when you first discover your strengths of, um, you know, what do I not have? Um, which again, I think it's, what's, uh, a little bit wired into us of, you know, what am I not good at? What are my weaknesses?

You're, you're very, you're sort I think, to be looking at that the grass is greener. Uh, so I think we all go through that. moment of, oh no, I don't have this. Yeah,

Nirish Shakya: because you know Growing up right like I was I generally, you know I tended to enjoy more creative creative subjects like arts and things like that and design, but I never really enjoyed Um subjects like maths and things like that and I could never understand why I just thought I was just you know stupid um because like my friends could just [00:18:00] You know do solve all those math problems so easily and it was like so difficult for me Um, and I can see why from my strengths test like, you know There's a lot of kind of these logical strengths that are pretty low down the list for me and my More top strengths are around your relationship building and strategic thinking and influencing and communication and so on which um You don't really get tested on a lot, you know when you're especially at school at university there You get more tested on like hard skills, and I don't think that's fair.

Is it?

Kate Berry: I, yeah, I agree. I think that's probably why I gravitated towards stance, you know, my first introduction to that was at school. I got to do it as a, as a GCSE, luckily for me. And, um, I, I, and Express Barts, remember, I don't know if they do that anymore, but that was my top subject. I thought, I felt guilty at how easy I found it.

I was just like, do you know what I mean? I thought this can't be right. I'm just, this is low effort for me. And that's again, where that ideation was [00:19:00] obviously coming in. Um, you know, where something like maths, you know, I was good at, um, and thankfully I've got learner and input high, which really helps, um, you know, cause I, I generally like the process of learning and.

Memory, and obviously at school there's lots of tests and, and things, so, you know, I, I tended to, to do well, but, but in, from how I felt inside

Nirish Shakya: So what you're saying is you're a nerd at

Kate Berry: I was a nerd at school. Yeah. But I didn't, I was like a, you know, secretly I wasn't, everyone thought I was a smart person and I didn't feel like, I was like, oh, I feel like a, a bit of a, a liar because I, like, I just remember stuff but don't understand it.

Like my brain, especially with maths, didn't, it didn't click, it didn't.

Nirish Shakya: Ah, because there are two different strengths, like the understanding and the remembering, is it?

Kate Berry: Yeah, like if someone was like, just remember the times table, I'd go, all right, sure. Like, well, remember what the prime numbers are. Okay. But then if someone was like, what is a prime number? I'm like, [00:20:00] I can't remember. Um, like the detail behind it, it wasn't something I naturally found interesting. Whereas something like expressive arts and dance, I loved every part of it.

And it felt easier and natural. But yeah, you know, they're not, they're not as celebrated as subjects. Are they, you know, Oh, I'm really good at expressive arts. Um, I think, yeah, maths, English and science tend to be, tend to be a little bit more, um, encouraged.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Um, and then the same thing with like, you know, even at work, right? Like the hard skills tend to get prioritized. And you know, you pretty much get recruited based on mostly your hard skills, like what you can see on paper or what you've done in your portfolio, things like that. And that can be really challenging, uh, for a lot of people who might have might be stronger in other areas, like other soft skills, which ultimately, you know, things that will take you probably [00:21:00] further in your career anyway.

Um, so, In terms of like the, the strengths that you do have, how do you use them on a, on a day to day basis? Could you maybe like, give me a little example or a scenario that kind of paints a picture in our head?

Kate Berry: Yeah, of course, um I think one thing I learned to do, which has been really helpful, I don't always do it now, and I'm not sure if it's just because I'm naturally starting to integrate these things, um, and I have quite low, well, I say quite low, very low discipline and consistency, so I don't really like to keep things as routine for long, um, but I did set up a routine at one point of, uh, reflecting and having space in the calendar to do that, um, because I think, again, speaking of things that don't seem to be sort of celebrated or encouraged, I think it's difficult for people to, and I get it, uh, but it's difficult for people to see you as doing something when they can't see you doing [00:22:00] something.

So having a lot of thinking strengths, often I need to just sit and think. So what does that look like to someone who's, you know, waiting for my, my work to come through? They can't see, can't see me there, you know, there's no like movie montage with the music of me, like sweating it out with like the books and stuff.

It's

Nirish Shakya: And they can't see like your thought bubbles kind of popping out of your head.

Kate Berry: Exactly. So I think it's a bizarre concept to just say, I'm just going to sit and think, but that's what I need as someone with High thinking strength and with something like intellection, especially, you know, so I, I would put it in for a Friday and I would reflect back on my week. Um, and then we sort of, um, integrated, uh, this is a pinched idea, but I love it.

Um, integrated something called brilliant moments and brilliant lens, um, which was again, reflective, just what's something I've done this week that was. That's [00:23:00] great. And, um, I'm proud of, or whatever. Uh, and what's something I've learned or, or, you know, that was positive language, but really where, where did I, where did I mess up this week?

Um, and you know, what did I learn from it and what might I, you know, do differently next time. And then we started to just sort of hashtag our, our strengths with that. So if I was, you know, saying, Oh, you know, Solved a real tough problem, uh, this week, you know, and I really, I feel like I've not just solved the problem, but I future proofed it.

I might be thinking, why, why was that a win for me? How did I do that? So I'd say, oh, maybe that was my strategic strength. Um, and then, uh, you know, equally where, where I messed up, like, why was I like, Overdoing one of my strengths is one of them sort of, you know, going a little into overdrive. Um, and I don't know, communication is the perfect one for me.

That's number seven for me. Um, a lot of my job is speaking with [00:24:00] people and if I'm bad at keeping that to time, as I am. You know, I will use intellection to reflect back and go, right, why, why did I have to rush through the last few tasks this week as because I ran over on three meetings where I was talking and that's because my communication strength, although brilliant, you know, dulling that, but that, that was a bit overexcited this week.

So you would then think about what strength might I use, you know, um, to. To kind of manage that, you know, and you'll normally have another strength say in your, in your top five or something that you can be using. So I have focused, I'll say, right. Okay. I'm going to have like, you know, I'm going to get the goal in there.

I'm going to start to like be a bit more sort of strict of myself. Um, you know, so it's. Yeah, it's just kind of doing things like that really, but that's very new to a lot of people, I would, I would imagine, um, to, to kind of be thinking about what you did that week, how you did it, and having time to, to, to think, [00:25:00] um, because that's just not something I think.

Many people do or see the value in doing.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah. You know, a lot of times, um, yeah, we don't look back at the week. We always. tend to look forward, right? Um, you know, quite for a long time in my career, I never did any weekly reflections or even weekly planning. You just rock up on a Monday morning and see what, you know, what needs to be done and just get, get cracking with it.

Um, you know, no reflection, no planning, no learnings. Um, and you know, just kind of go on that hamster wheel every week, you know, waiting for, for, for the weekend. And then the weekend just passes and then go to the next week and so on. But I think what, what you've said there, I think it's a very powerful way to, uh, measure your, your, your week, uh, in terms of like, I think, especially when you use your strength as a measurement framework, right?

Like you said, um, seeing like, you know, what activities that you did. And where in [00:26:00] what kind of activities that you were able to use your your strengths. Where did you struggle? I think that could be another way to learn. Okay, so maybe like how those activities didn't tie up to your natural strengths and you had to borrow some of them the strengths that are lower on your List, right?

I think for me what's been really powerful is just understanding You know, what kind of tasks or activities that I can do myself so that I can gain, get into that state of flow more easily and, and use my zone of genius and what kind of things and activities that I don't have to feel guilty about delegating because a lot of times, and I just feel really guilty when I'm delegating stuff, I'm like, Oh, you know, I should be doing everything because, you know, if, if, if, if, you know, the, the saying goes right, like if you want it to be done, And, Right, or properly, you should just do it yourself.

Um, and that's something that I've adopted since school. Like, I used to do all my group projects myself, not let my friends do anything because I didn't trust them. [00:27:00] Um, but I think that, that, um, Has definitely made me feel more stressed when it comes to, you know, projects that work and things like that. Because sometimes you just want to do everything yourself, like just to prove to others that you can do it. But then you end up kind of burning out. Um, and just knowing what I'm good at, um, can give you that, um, I guess the evidence to act on to say, okay, you know, I want to use these trends that I have to do these things more effectively and let the people who are actually better at the strengths that I don't have to do those things so that we can actually collaborate and build something together.

Kate Berry: Absolutely. I think, uh, that's a really important part to touch on is the collaboration and the relinquishing of control and kind of understanding and respecting other people have something [00:28:00] to offer. Um, that, you know, sometimes, you know, you think, oh, I kind of know it all at the moment. I'm all right. I'm, I'm, I'm feeling confident, but, um, You know, I, I use analytical as, as an example, I used to find, you know, stereotypically, but sort of more analytical, uh, types a little bit challenging because, you know, they ask the question why, um, why it can be a hard question to answer.

Um, because with something like ideation, I don't really know why, um, I didn't, I don't have a process. It just popped into my head like five seconds ago. Um, and I would take it negatively. I would take it as. I was this person really like coming down on my idea. I was just trying to be helpful, you know, nobody else had come up with an idea.

Like why, why pick on the only person trying to help? You know, I'd get really like upset about it just because someone was like, well, why would we do that? How would we do it? How would that work? I'd be like, well, back off. Um, and then, you know, Through the strengths work, it helped me realize that just [00:29:00] because I'm someone who, uh, can come to that idea really quickly, um, other people maybe can't, or they weren't in your head obviously at the time, so they have no idea, you know, one minute they were all talking about cheese and then suddenly you go, chocolate, and they're like, what are you on about?

Where did that come from? Um, you know, and it's because you've had this. Thing happen that, that sometimes can be difficult to put into words. So actually an analytical is just trying to understand, you know, what, what are you on about? Because we want, we weren't there. Um, and actually that can be a really helpful ally in the room.

Because where other people maybe don't say anything and just go, okay, she's talking about chocolate, but don't, nevermind, Kate, we're just going to move on because they're like, what are you on about? Analytical kind of opens up the conversation, probably asks the questions that the people were thinking, but didn't ask.

And then that actually gives me the opportunity to kind of take people on the journey with me. Get maybe some [00:30:00] buy in, um, and also really stress test it because ideation comes up with a lot of ideas, but they're not always good, you know. I'd like to think they are, but in reality, you know, there will be angles I, I haven't thought of yet.

Um, and an analytical is, is great with just questioning something and, and tearing it apart. So, um, You know, that didn't happen overnight for me, but, but now I'm like, okay, well, I've been getting frustrated with this person. I don't understand. So I'm just trying to understand my idea and actually that's better than someone who's not trying to understand my idea.

It's just going, what are you on about?

So 

Nirish Shakya: in that case, the other person is pretty much, um, utilizing their unique strengths, right? Rather than trying to, you know, put you down or just question you, they're trying to fulfill their strengths. Um, and a lot of times we, we don't see that, we don't understand that, we don't empathize with that.

And sometimes, [00:31:00] you know, we, we can feel like we're being attacked when we're not.

Kate Berry: a hundred percent

Nirish Shakya: And I think there's a lot of power in that, um, realization, right? I think there's, there's always so much conflict that happens at work. And I think for me, the, probably the number one reason for the conflict is because we don't understand how, you know, we, we all work and operate differently to each other and we expect everyone else to think, act and work the same as us, which is not the case.

Kate Berry: and that's a big part of gaining confidence. With the strengths that you've got, like all the natural themes or talents and that, that you'll, you'll turn into a strength with, with some sort of applied effort, um, is seeing it as a strength. I think often, you know, you'll do the profile and you'll see the result and you'll, you'll kind of go, yeah, I sort of get that.

I [00:32:00] suppose that I do that, Because it's something that's so natural to you that you're just, you're probably assuming everybody thinks like that or everybody does that. Um, and, and they don't. I think you, you know, it's really easy to, to kind of get sucked into that as people is, you know, I, I meant it in that way.

So you probably took it in that way where, you know, it's often not happening.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah.

Kate Berry: so

yeah. 

Nirish Shakya: that. I love, you know, how viewing our unique, um, individual traits, um, as these positive, these strengths rather than weaknesses. So if someone is, you know, someone who wants to just. You know, get into the room and just get down straight to business without doing small talk. It's not with their weakness.

It's their strength to be able to do that as opposed to you who might want to spend like, you know, 5 10 minutes doing that small talk and icebreakers and things like that. And I think appreciating people based on their strengths [00:33:00]probably makes the relationship a lot more positive than just Seeing it as as weaknesses because we can all fill each other's gaps.

Kate Berry: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Sort of chatting about it recently, uh, with my partner, he. Which, um, is quite a, a kind of risk of us. Strength that falls into execution. Um, so it's, it's applied to kind of doing, um, and again, I think it's like a lots of thinking strengths and I'm quite problem solving. And I feel like I'm quite risk averse.

Sometimes I've done all of that in my head. And then when I'm ready to do, you know, to start putting into action. He'll then come in and go, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa. And kind of put the brakes on. And I'm like, Oh no, you know, it's like a second layer. I didn't need, I'm good to go now. I stopped stifling my, you know, I've got to achieve a number six.

So when I'm ready to go, it's like the energy is pushing to, to go and he'll sort of slow it back down again. And I think, Oh no, [00:34:00] don't, don't, don't put me back into the thinking phase. I was done with the thinking phase. Um, but you know, just. Just that outlook. I'm starting to appreciate more now because we were talking the other day about booking Airbnbs and he was like, the first thing you do is check if it's refundable.

Surely. I'm like, no,

Nirish Shakya: That's not your strength

Kate Berry: not mine. Yeah. Or just, I think a lot of people, everyone, you know, just. Look at something like booking an Airbnb, I think it's just a simple task. Everyone does the same way. It's like, nah, this person's looking at how close it is to the beach because they don't want to walk. That person's like, you know, how many separate rooms are there?

I want my own bathroom. Uh, this person's like, has it got wifi? I've got to stay connected. Um, and then his brain's going straight to what could go wrong? How could we get out of it if we needed to? Um, which you could see as a negative, you know, if you, if you're someone who doesn't do that, you're like, oh my God, why are you thinking glass half empty?

But actually, you know, something goes wrong. You go on, we need to cancel the Airbnb and thankfully, he's like already on it, [00:35:00] guys. And you start to appreciate it where, you know, where you could see it as, you know, buzzkill or getting in the way. I want to just be all excited and achieve this up, let's do this, you know, but actually now I will seek that.

I will go to him and be like, you know, can you just check this and make sure I've not done. Like miss something, you know, and I've, I've, I'm safe and I really value that. I think it annoys him, but

Nirish Shakya: yeah,

Kate Berry: it.

Nirish Shakya: yeah, I think it's like, you know, we We go on about, you know, empathizing with our colleagues and, you know, creating that sense of belonging and safety and psychological safety at work and, and a lot of times those are just words, right? Because we don't know how, we're like, Oh, yeah, let's just empathize.

Let's just build psychological safety. But we're like, how? Like, because when it comes to like, when the robber has the road, there's going to be conflict, there's going to be friction, right? A lot of times it's because of like, you know, for example, we don't know how they work and how they think. And I think, um, for me, what's been [00:36:00] really valuable is to, again, using this tool to get a better understanding of human behaviors.

Um, And one, one thing that actually surprised me, uh, with my list of strengths is like, you know, empathy is pretty low down on the list for me, like, it's like number 30 for me. And the reason that surprised me was because, um, you know, being a researcher and a designer, I thought like empathy is like a natural strength for me.

It's like, oh yeah, I'm always empathizing with, with my users and customers. But what I also realized was that, um, um, you know, every time I'm conducting research and empathizing and so on. It drains a lot of my energy, although I can do it. I've been trained to do it, you know, through my design training, it drains a lot of energy for me.

Um, and just. Having that, um, uh, understanding, now gives me the power to then plan my days and my week accordingly. Say, okay, these activities, [00:37:00] they're going to drain energy, right? And I can actually then plan my activities accordingly. So, okay, after a bunch of, um, interviews, what can I do? to Raise that energy level recharge my batteries again rather than constantly be doing activities that are draining my energy At the end of the week i'm like why am I so bloody exhausted?

Kate Berry: Yeah. I love that you've touched on that. Cause again, that, that was a huge learn for me was when, when reflecting back on the week and thinking, why was that day a really stressful day or why was it a really hard day and kind of starting to separate out what kind of. Challenge. It was, you know, what kind of stress it was.

Um, so like you said, if you're playing to a lesser strength, you may feel like I can do that. Like, you know, I've learned how to do it. Like, you don't, you don't accept that. It's low down for you, but you don't feel like I'm pretty good at that. And it's like, well, yeah, you. potentially become skilled at it.

But if it wasn't something that came really naturally to you, you are pouring a lot of effort into it, as you say, a lot of energy. So, [00:38:00] um, it's not bad. It's nothing bad, but, but in theory, you know, you wouldn't want to spend a lot of time working on the things that take a lot of work. You would want to be trying to.

You know, play to the things that come naturally and are easy for you. And then you're going to find life easier, you know, energy is going to be higher. Um, so that, that's one thing. And I think everyone at some point has probably fallen into that trap because we, we quite often learn through mimicking other people.

That's a very human, um, way of learning. You just copy people. And so, you know. New task, don't know how to do it. That guy seems to have it nailed. I'll, I'll, I'll do that. And then you realize, oh, it's really hard for me to do it this way. Um, and so, you know, time always being, you know, an issue as well. I don't think you, you get a chance really to think about, hang on, should I be doing it in this way?

Just because. That's how I saw him do it. And then I think with the strengths coaching, it helps you realize, okay, well, how can I achieve the same goal, but in a way that works better for me. Um, and I think [00:39:00] that's definitely something that, that I found was missing in the workplace was people were like, just do it this way.

This is how you do it. This is the right way of doing it. And it was very drummed in and I was like, okay, so I found that really hard. Whereas I feel like I'm going to achieve this, like, as long as the end goal is, it doesn't matter how like. It doesn't matter how I did it, like as long as we did it. So for me, like autonomy in the workplace is really important because I'm like, you know, I need to figure out the best way for me to achieve that, that thing.

And that thing could be different each time. Um, there's an interesting concept in strengths about situational fluency where. You know, one minute I look really, really confident in something and you think, oh, you know, she must, uh, actually a good examples between activator and deliberative to activate is putting things into action, like inpatient to get going.

Um, and deliberative, like we talked about earlier, risk averse wants to put the brakes on. So if you're someone who has both of those to other people, especially if you're a leader. You might look crazy sometimes [00:40:00] because one minute you're saying, come on, let's go guys, you know, and then the next minute you're, hang on, have we thought this through?

If we, if we checked everything, you know, and, you know, cause your deliberatives up. And that's because depending on the The thing you're doing, your confidence level with it, your knowledge of it, everything will be different. So if it's something, you know, like the back of your hand activated is probably up going, come on, let's go.

But if it's something you don't know, or something that's higher, higher risk, higher priority, you know, in, in, in general, deliberative will probably come up. There's a little bit like a whack a mole kind of, uh, visualization I get, but if you're not sort of aware of that. Either you may feel, why am I like this?

You know, but particularly for other people, it's really helpful to kind of explain to them, um, you know, why one minute you're saying this and then the next it looks like you're completely contradicting yourself. Um, and then, yeah, learning how to apply that thoughtfully so you can protect that experience we [00:41:00] just talked about where you had a really tough week.

You know, if you're able to kind of start planning it in where you know, like you say, I have some. Recovery time to recoup my energy. If I've decided to be challenging myself today and working on my empathy, even though I know that's lower, you're, you're giving yourself the best chance of succeeding that week by saying, okay, let me now make sure I'm playing to my strengths.

And the next thing that I do so I can build my energy back up and not completely deplete myself.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah, yeah, and I want to just quickly touch upon um, something you had said earlier on how you felt like a faker You know whether going from dance to finance or even even now and I think um, you know us designers and creatives like we we are um, you know, we we pretty much feel like an imposter a lot of the times.

Uh, you know, like I felt like an imposter a lot of times because I came from a non design background into the industry and I was like, man, what, like, do I even know what I'm doing here? Should I be here? There are all these, like, people who are smarter than [00:42:00] me. Um, and I realized that even those people who I was looking up to would pretty much probably feeling the same thing as well, feeling like an imposter.

Um, In your experience like how has you know, there's this knowledge of your own strengths. How has that helped you manage your own Impostor syndrome,

Kate Berry: I think, um, just starting to kind of understand that you have something to offer, um, in, in kind of any situation, even if the situation is new to you or it's not something You know, you, you stereotypically fit into, you know, cause I haven't come from that background or whatever it might be. So with me with finance, you know, I don't typically know much about finance as a person, you know, I'm really not great with it.

So I was kind of, you know, feeling bad as well. I thought, gosh, why should I be in training in finance? You know, but actually understanding, well, my skillset is. It's communication, it's, it's ideation, it's [00:43:00] thinking about, um, an input, you know, so I can, you know, use input to go right. Learner and input, I guess, to kind of absorb a load of information and kind of collect that with input and put it into, like, the archives, I would sort of say, and sort that information out.

Um, you know, so say it's a new regulation that's coming in, I can pick that up pretty quickly, and I can, I can filter it out pretty nicely. And then with ideation, you know, I can kind of... Think about and individualization. I would say I've got that pretty high. I can think about what's a good way of explaining.

This was like an analogy. I could use to kind of put this into a simpler context and a lot of that's actually coming from the fact that I would think to do that as someone who doesn't know finance. So immediately a weakness is a strength there for me because I'm already automatically going to ideation to go, Oh, we're going to have to explain this in a different way, because it's difficult, even though probably half the people I was training were like, it's not difficult for us, but okay.

[00:44:00] Um, but you know, I was there for the people who, who would have needed to put it into a different light. Um, and I could do that on the fly really easily. So in person training, you know, someone goes, I still don't get it. I could very quickly think of another idea, you know, of how to explain it, another analogy, another, um, another thing.

And then with communication that can come out my mouth where some people have ideation, but not communication thinking that probably. Not able to communicate it quite as quickly. Maybe they would be more like prepare up front. I could do it very much in the moment, um, and in any kind of fast paced environment where you're going to learn something very quickly and translate that to a bunch of people who've got a and take calls on it the next day. That's a skill that I had. So suddenly we're not talking about, well, how well do you understand the new pensions regulation? Like how long have you worked in pensions for anyway? I'm like, you know, it's like, it's not about that anymore. It's about, here's this brief, you know, this is the goal. Um, that's what we need to do is these people need to [00:45:00]know this new thing.

How can I. With what I've got, make that happen. And, and that's kind of where I would build confidence. And my coach kind of, you know, challenged me to do things like in a meeting, you know, people would be describing a problem and quite often, you know, ideations going off, you know, have they tried this? Why don't we just do that?

And I would think, I'm not going to say that because it seems. Obviously, like, you know, they're going to look at me like, um, obviously we would have done that. Like, I'd feel stupid. So I held back and say it. And she sort of pushed me to, to say it and just try, try it and see what happens. And I would say it and I'm there waiting, waiting for the, for the inevitable.

You wouldn't do that in finance or we've tried that before. And then people were like, Yeah. Okay. That's a good idea. And I was like, um, and I don't get it. Like, that seems really obvious. Like, you know, not, not to be rude, like, you know, but to my coach, I'd be like, I felt really obvious. I don't feel like, you know, [00:46:00] that wasn't, I contributed anything that fantastic.

And she was like, yeah, because that's, that's your strength. You can come up with creative ways to solve a problem. And, um, the other thing I love about ideations, connecting sort of seemingly disparate phenomena. So I think sometimes people are very in the lens of the area they're working in or the thing that the one problem they're solving where I could kind of see how all the other departments would connect to that or maybe how that one could have been helpful in the situation, et cetera.

So I really built confidence there where before I was thinking, where does my dance creative brain come into play here? How is it useful? I don't know anything about finance. So, um, and then just. Kind of removing it from the role from the, the industry, the thing you're doing and just seeing it as a sort of a thing of its own really, really helps.

And I think a common question you get is kind of, you know, what strengths should I have to be a designer? Should I have ideation? Should I have this? It's like, [00:47:00] no, there's no right or wrong strengths. You know, it's, it's the, the best success is just using what you have. Um, and, and not trying to mimic as we sort of spoke about before.

Nirish Shakya: so you have been using strengths to help out some of your colleagues at General Assembly. Tell me how that works

Kate Berry: Yeah. So I found out, um, quite a few people, especially in our us teams that already done the strengths test. So I thought, Ooh, yay. Cause, uh, you know, I've come from a place where we'd really, we'd really started to do that in pockets. At my previous company and I'd, I'd really loved it. And then, you know, you start a new company and you're like, Hey, do you do it here and officially no.

So I was like, Oh no, I really want to. So I kind of started chatting around and realize, Oh, Hey, people, people either already have done it or people have interested in it. So, so then a few people, um, sort of did that, did their assessment. And it's, [00:48:00] um, mostly been kind of within my, my team. We've started to.

To tap into each other's strengths as a team. And that's been fantastic because actually we've got a really good mix between us. It's just, it's lovely. It helps us, um, kind of get to know each other better, especially being a fully remote company. Um, you know, it really helps us bond, but then equally, I can, I can go to someone and, you know, so some of my teams have got activated number one, you know, it could be like, help me out here because I'm, I'm paralysis over analysis with all my thinking strengths.

How am I just going to get this. I'm over engineering, you know, and she's like, just do it, get it up, get it done, you know, or, or just, um, I can, I could even request that, you know, um, you know, can you help me out? Can you throw me in the deep end? I give you permission, just do it because I can't seem to do it for myself, I'm a bit stuck.

Um, so we, we've started doing that in our team and we've got a really great place where we were quite comfortable sort of, um. [00:49:00] Utilizing each other's strengths, working together, starting to kind of think about assignments based on our strengths. And then we've done it in broader pockets on other teams as well.

I've done lots of really nice team activity building things. And then more recently I started to sort of use it as a part of the coaching that we do with, with yourself and some of the people that are. That train for us at GA as well. Um, so just generally sharing the love of CliftonStrengths.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm, and how do you? make sure that this tool does not like, you know, pigeonhole people or maybe, uh, let, not let them realize the unrealized potential. So they might not have realized that they have a strength and there's just focusing on the strengths that naturally come to them and not worry about maybe learning new skills.

Um, how does that risk get managed?

Kate Berry: Yeah, that's a great question. I think in, in the way that you, you put that out there really. And I think I, again, I was really lucky that I got coached by someone who was a certified Gallup coach. It was sort of [00:50:00]done exactly as Gallup would recommend. And I've tried to stay really true to that. It can get really carried away sometimes, but you know, where you just want to kind of.

Just start using it as labels and like, Oh my gosh, that's so achiever and things, but I generally try, especially when it's new to people to, to stay a little bit away from that until people understand it better. Um, so a lot of it is, I'm not telling you anything about. Your strengths. I don't know your strengths.

Really. I can't just look at a piece of paper. You're like this. Um, so a lot of it is you tell me and you're kind of getting people to bring that version of that to the table from day one. Um, and then helping them see like you touched on earlier. We'll talk about how, um, just because something's lower down doesn't mean you can't.

Achieve something similar, but it's just making sure you, it's like a, you know, at the root of your strength on the way. So you're going to do it via [00:51:00] futuristic or you're going to do it via something else, or you just put it in a table and you go, that person's got activator. I'm coming for you today.

That's what I need. And I don't have the time to try and. Figure out how to do that for myself today. Um, I'm both a fine, you know, we don't have, we're not one complete, uh, package, um, in, in any respect, but yeah, I think that helps people understand that you can, you can, if you, if you've got the ambition to kind of work on some of those lower ones, that's, that's fine if you want to be more disciplined, but it's not something that comes naturally to you.

Um. You know, through, through coaching on strengths, you can say, well, why do you wanna be more disciplined? What is it that you're trying to achieve? And then once you understand that, so for a lot of people it's, I just wanna get fit and healthy, but I'm not disciplined, I'm not routine. I relate . It's not something I'm gonna either.

So, you know, I can't say, oh, well try this, try that, do this because. That's probably something that would work for me. Um, so you would tap into, well, what [00:52:00] strengths have you got? How could they be used for that? Um, and I think maybe ideation helps me with that and kind of, you know, helping kind of bring out some creative thinking there, but, but for me as an example on that one.

Um, I will usually message my sister and say, do you want to do a walk and talk in the morning? Um, because i'm not very motivated. I'm not very disciplined I'm not very motivated to just go for a walk by myself with no purpose I think my achiever is like I want to do it, but I need I need more so By chatting to my sister who is someone I don't get to see too often.

My communication is up You know, I get to talk first thing love talking Get to learn about her and what she's been up to where we've got that distance You know, and then achieve is just so happy because I've ticked the box of I did 30 minutes of exercise at the beginning of my day. Um, you know, I haven't gone to a gym, haven't got a subscription, haven't been routine, haven't been disciplined, all these things that you're told.

I'm like, I just chatted. Um, so it's, yeah, helping [00:53:00] people unlock, um, you know, what it is they're trying, trying to do. So, so you wouldn't say just be more disciplined and try to, you know, get part with someone with discipline. Copy every shadow, every move that they make, you'd say, you know, well, if that's the thing you wanna achieve, how can you achieve it?

What's the the right way to do that for you? So on the outside looking in, people might think, be bet. Kate's got discipline in her top strengths, you know, if they see me every day going for my walk, and I'm like, Moha, no, not at all. I've cheated the system, you know, and, uh, and that's what I love about it.

It's, um, you know, and, and that, that, I, I think that's what makes them quite difficult to guess in people as far, you know. It's always fun to try and guess people's strengths, but I think it can be tricky in that sense because you can be using them so differently.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. And, um, how would you recommend people get started with this?

Kate Berry: Uh, so, I mean, Gallup is, is brilliant [00:54:00] as a, as a hub for knowledge. So, so obviously, um, going just onto clips and strokes on the Gallup website and reading up about, uh, the, the strengths themselves and the domains and all of that kind of, uh, philosophy of, of how they use the strengths. I've really appreciated their call to coach as well as, uh, you can, you can even just go on YouTube and have a look at some of the videos of that.

Uh, where they go into a bit more of like the stats on some of the strengths, so like how common that particular strength is according to their database. Um, or, you know, what, what it may partner well with. Um, I also find that really interesting, um, and that can give you an instant, uh, view of, of kind of... Who I might collaborate with without even really knowing much about it yet, but if they say, Oh, that's a really powerful partnership, like strategic and activator, because they're going to pull you out of thinking and into doing, um, they give you some really good, um, instant information on that. Yeah. Um, but a coach, I [00:55:00] would always recommend a coach because it is so. It is such a unique, um, yeah, like I said, the one in 33 million,

it's a very unique system.

Nirish Shakya: cool. Yeah, I mean, just a caveat, we're not trying to sell or promote, um, Gallup, you know, Griffin strengths here. There's like other companies that also offer similar tools. I think one of them that I've also used, um, is, um, Capfinity. Uh, they also have like a similar, Strengths profile to test, uh, which basically kind of shows like a similar kind of list, but like, you know, in a quadrant rather than one list.

So yeah, um, I would say, you know, check out a few of those and see which one resonates with you more, more, and then, you know, give it a go, uh, and definitely like work with a strengths coach, um, to make sense of the data that you get from it. So Kate. Imagine that you are stuck on a desert island. You randomly got deserted there.

Um, what's the one strength that you would [00:56:00] bring with you to survive on that island?

Kate Berry: Oh, I mean, I've talked about it a lot today and it is my number one. Uh, I'd have to say ideation. I'd hope it would get me out of a bind. Yeah, I'm hoping, yeah, I'm hoping a little bit of ingenuity would come out. I can sometimes do that. I'm not brilliant at doing it in a very tangible way. That's where I envy restorative a bit. You know, I think it's up there. It's harder to translate into there.

Um, so yeah, hopefully that would, that would maybe save, save, save me, uh, when I get hungry or, or need to make a fire or something.

Nirish Shakya: And what's the one strength that you don't have that you wish you did?

Kate Berry: Um, I think, yeah, I touched on this already, uh, having low discipline, pretty envious of the people who, who can just be like, I've [00:57:00] been eating too much chocolate recently. I think I'm going to remedy that. Done versus, you know, the majority of us, you have to go, Oh, how do I do this? Um, you know, that, that would be nice.

And then, you know, again, I've spoken about, um, you know, having a lot of thinking strengths, I can, uh, that can be a little bit of a barrier sometimes into, um, like meeting people and just having like a really, um, natural kind of conversation. Sometimes I can overthink it, overdo it. Um, Uh, so, so I, I, yeah, I get Wu Wendy a lot where people, they can just strike up a conversation so easily.

Um, how did you even, what questions did you think to ask? I, I don't know what question to ask. I, I, you know, other than how's the weather? Like, where do I go from here? So, yeah. I,

I, I envy the natural charisma. I would have to read a book of, like, how to win friendships with people or something and be like, ah, now I can do this.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah, [00:58:00] Wu is my, one of my top three strengths, um, and so I love doing this. I love asking people questions and, you know, building relationships, whether it's over a podcast episode like this or just in person. So Kate, um, we started off with the opening scene of your movie and let's imagine that now this is towards the end of the movie and Kate, you are on your deathbed.

And someone comes up to you with a tiny post it and a sharpie and asks you to write your last few words for humanity. What would you write on that tiny poster? On your last day on earth?

Kate Berry: That was a tough one. Probably something about letting things go. Um, that's something I'm really trying to, to learn. I'm reading a really great book about it at the moment. Um, dealing, you know, perfect for your podcast or other ish, but [00:59:00] dealing with the feeling. Um, and letting it go before you attach thousands of unnecessary thoughts to it, which as you imagine for a five thinking strength person, I've wasted a lot of time doing or, you know, spent a lot of energy worrying about what could be when I don't know what could be.

Um, and you know, I read this brilliant thing once. I was like, how often I hurt my own feelings Or upset myself by, you know, just imagining this whole scenario playing out Um, and then it doesn't happen and you're like, I just got really upset over that and why? So i'd say yeah something like learn to let go.

Um in your in the time that you have here Um, so that you, you don't spend too much time dwelling on things.

Nirish Shakya: I love that. It kind of reminds me of my strength number four, which is futuristic. Which means that it's really easy for me to live in the future and then plan out future things and future events and future ideas. [01:00:00] But which at the same time makes me, makes it really hard for me to just be present and live in the present.

Manifold practices, it doesn't come naturally to me. Um, so yeah, that, that, that's something that I need to kind of take on board as well in terms of just let go of a lot of these, you know, thoughts that distract you from living where you are now in the present moment. So yeah, very wise words there, Kate.

Thank you so much. Um, is there a question that you would ask yourself that I haven't asked you yet?

Kate Berry: Um, I think, uh, maybe just something about, um, a little bit more about sort of how you, how you could use this for wellbeing, because that was such a huge thing for me. Um, so how could I manage my wellbeing through my strengths? Um, so we spoke a little bit about the energy. I think another thing that was so important to me is recognizing where one of your strengths is being [01:01:00] stifled.

That really hurt my wellbeing more so than playing to a lesser strength. I felt playing to a lesser strength was just I'm tired, I'm exhausted, that was hard work. But the feeling of frustration of not being able to use a strength that's knocking at the door every day. Was really, I found that quite damaging, to my mental health.

I would, yeah, certainly, encourage people to think about, what, where am I at my happiest? And why, whether or not you use that, that CliftonStrengths tool to, figure that out, that just gives you a language and a helping hand, but you can just do that through reflective practice.

If you think, I really love talking in a meeting. I find it hard listening all day. Or, I really like the beginning of a process. I really love contributing the thinking and the ideas and I struggle to just do the doing, whatever it might be. and [01:02:00] then helping yourself on the on a daily basis, be in a position to, to use that and not be, not being allowed to use that for whatever reason, or not feeling like you can use that.

it's something that I would, yeah, I would encourage people to think about because that was big for me.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah, I love that. because a lot of times I tend to push myself too hard, doing the things that don't come naturally to me or towards a direction that I think I should go because that's what, that's where everyone else is going, but doesn't mean that it's the right direction for me.

It's the right things to do for me and just having a better understanding of what I'm good at. It gives me an excuse just to not chase those things that are not me, right? So I think for me this tool has been [01:03:00] a tool for, self discovery to unlayer these, the conditioning that i've covered myself with Just so that, just because I can, be successful in certain areas that I think I should be successful in.

But, I think coming back to your last words, a lot of times it says help me let go of those expectations and just be at peace with who I really am. Not who i'm not

Kate Berry: love that and I'm really, I'm really happy to hear that that's, um, that's come through for you because yeah, I think being happy with who you are for sure is like a really great way of putting it. It's, um, I think in the Gallup terms they talk about like claiming it, um, you know, sort of. Uh, so the intellection as an example for me, I didn't get it and I saw it as a negative because I can be a dweller and it's a very ruminating, reflective, um, strength.

And I thought, Oh, how's this useful? This is exactly where I do all of my overthinking and [01:04:00] I'm in the past too much. This is a little strength, you know, and then by, by learning a little bit more about it, you know, I remember this. Shining moment where it was, I can't remember who I was speaking with, I was speaking with somebody and discovered that I mentally rehearse things through my intellection, which makes me super productive.

Um, you know, so you, you kind of look at the executing strengths as the most productive things, but actually the prelude can be the thinking. Um, so by the time I get to the doing, I'm, I'm like, you know, really mean because I've already thought it all through and I've thought about, you know, what's the best way to do that.

And I didn't need to sit down for an hour and plan it all out or anything. I could just do that in my mind. Um, and whoever I was speaking with had low intellectual was like you can do it in your mind. I was like Yeah, is that I mean it's to be honest. I relate to it because it's how I feel about people You could do mental maths.

I'm like, I mean I can't

I 

Now I have to write it. I have to see it. Yeah Um, despite intellection, uh, but yeah, I mean, [01:05:00] when you have that conversation with someone and you see that genuine look from them being like, huh, I can't do that. That's a witchcraft. You start to go, Oh, well, maybe inflection's good.

You know, where five minutes ago I was slating it going off. What's the use of this, you know, strength, you know? Um, so yeah, I think. Yeah, spending some, spending some time really starting to be at peace with what they are rather than seeing them as a negative or a thing in your way, you know, really coming full circle to kind of really appreciate them and then offer them to other people as a, you know, raw, mature kind of language that they use. That's something I've,

Nirish Shakya: and yeah, okay Do these um strengths do they evolve and change or do they stay kind of consistent throughout your life? For example, let's say if I want to learn a new skill that does not have my strength Can I learn a strength or that's not how it works

Kate Berry: yes, it's a really, really good one. Um, I think, yeah, we all kind of want to do that, you know, [01:06:00]especially as learners who have learned a high, how can I have them? Can I have all of them? Um, you know, you can learn, you, you can learn how to, to, You know, say communication is really, really, uh, good example. I can go on a course, use my learner strength to learn how to be a good communicator, and I can get much, much better at communication.

Doesn't mean that that's going to, if I retook the test in a year's time, mean my communication suddenly goes up to the top. Because it doesn't mean it comes naturally to me. I've just learned how to do it. And again, I've done that through another strength, which is... It's the point. Um, so you may be surprised, you know, if you keep doing the test, why is it not moving?

I'm really good at it now. In fact, everyone knows me as the communicator. Um, it's just about what, what comes naturally to you. What's a, you know, I think, I think it all comes from your forming years, I guess. But, um,

Nirish Shakya: meaning it from your childhood?

Kate Berry: yeah, yeah. From [01:07:00] when, from when you are,

Nirish Shakya: nature or nurture?

Kate Berry: it's probably both, I would say, uh, yeah, I mean, my partner put it into a really good way about.

You know, playing football for him at school, um, or, or as a club or whatever, but at a school age, you think everybody, you know, you see a bunch of lads, they all play football. Probably imagine they all have similar interests and they're all there for similar reasons. But he was like, well, actually, you know, I went because I just wanted to make some friends and just be in a club and be part of a community.

You know, he's got connectedness. I think he was like, ah, you know, this is a thing guys my age do. I mean, get in on that, you know, whereas somebody maybe with high competition was there to win the game and they were like, screw the people I'm going to win. I want to play a sport where I get to kind of get my, uh, get my fix of communication and people love me for that because I really drive the team.

And then maybe someone who's in goal is taking that step back and just looking at the game unfold and that [01:08:00]maybe put like a strategic strength and they're able to go, guys, you know, I've noticed something. So. He was like, that's probably when you're building them. You know, you think you're all having the same experience.

You're going to come out the same, but actually you all play football. You came out completely different strengths. You're all there for different reasons, learning different things. And I loved that. I was like, that's such a great analogy. You can see probably why, um, people were building up one strength versus another.

Um, even though they were having a similar experience. 

Nirish Shakya: yeah. I love that example, and um, although, you know, each one of those three people might, um, have different strengths that, that are, that's encouraging them to, you know, take up the same activity, they can all learn to play football really well, despite having different strengths.

Kate Berry: Exactly. Yeah. They're all really good footballers, but they're all bringing a completely different, uh, way, uh, to be good at football. 

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah, love [01:09:00] it. Love it. Awesome. I think um one thing that um, Just having this chat with you over the past an hour hour and a half has highlighted to me Is that um, you know strengths is definitely a a tool that helps you understand yourself better, but not just yourself But also others Better as well.

And like, you know, say it, it kind of gives you that common language to, um, work with each other more effectively rather than, you know, um, trying to not rather than not understanding why has someone else, um, You know, done something that I wouldn't do or why am I, what, why have they, um, you know, questioned my ideas or my ways of working?

It's because they're using their strengths, which you might not have. And you might be using strengths that they might not have. And team building to me, it is about. Understanding the uniqueness of people within the team and building a team that, you know, [01:10:00] compliments each other rather than, you know, having a monoculture of people with the same strengths and the same skills.

Um, I think just having this understanding, this kind of codified understanding would solve so many conflicts and issues in a team. And so much energy is wasted, energy and time is wasted, when people don't understand each other.

Kate Berry: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And, uh, I would very much apply that to, uh, to non work as well. I think, you know, for, for me and my partner, like this is helping us understand each other as well. Um, and. I see his adaptability one minute as very frustrating. I have focus, so, you know, we're at a restaurant. I'm like, I'm talking to you.

That's what I'm doing. He's got adaptability, so his eyes are going, as I'm talking, and I'm like, Oh! But, um, when he explains it, I'm fascinated by it because I wouldn't even notice what was going on in the [01:11:00] corner of the restaurant. And he's like, did you see that person who had that hat? I'm like, oh, what are you on about?

And then the way he describes it, I'm like, you're like James Bond, you know, you go in a room and then you come out and you're like, there were five cameras all pointing for the north face of the building. There was three people, one there with a cane. And I'm like, Oh my god, I, how did you even, I didn't see any of like, because focus is very like, I've got the blinkers on, like I blur my background away.

Whereas then he's like, oh I wish I could blur my background away sometimes because you know, I hear everything, I see everything. So we now both love each other's strengths where I think we, you know, had definitely not appreciated them in the past.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah, I think I also have adaptability as one of my top 10 strengths and I, yeah, my wife keeps asking me, why do your eyes keep like darting around the room all the time? It's because like I'm sensing the environment, I'm looking out for danger, trying to adapt to the environment.

Kate Berry: Exactly. So you can see it as I'm protecting you and then you go, okay, so you're not ignoring me. You're actually, 

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. 

Kate Berry: out for me.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. [01:12:00] So it's not my weakness. It's actually my strength.

Kate Berry: It is your strength. And your wife hopefully is like, yes, I see that as a strength now. Not as a, he's not listening.

Nirish Shakya: Well, a lot of cases that's also true as well. But don't tell her I said that. 

Hopefully she doesn't listen to this episode. Cool. Great. Awesome. Well, it's been really lovely having you Um, if they wanted to.

Kate Berry: Yeah. Uh, I'm on LinkedIn, so you know, more than happy if anyone wants to reach out to, to chat if you've already done done your strengths or if you're, you know, just into something similar. Um, I just, I love all of that, you know, like you say, understanding people as people. So, um, yeah, happy to connect with the people in that respect.

Nirish Shakya: Awesome. Well, thank you very much for your time, Kate. And, um, you know, every time I have a chat with you, it's like a light bulb that, um, turns on in my head. So, yeah, thank you so much for [01:13:00] turning on so many light bulbs there for me. Um, and, uh, yeah, we'll, um, I look forward to digging deeper into this maybe next time on the show.

Uh, but for now, thank you so much and, um, you have a great day.

Kate Berry: Thank you so much for having me.

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Nirish Shakya: Thank you so much for spending your time with us during this conversation. It means a lot to me and I really wanna make sure that this time is worthwhile to you. So please take a moment to think about one thing this conversation has helped you see differently. And if you'd like, you can also email it to me as well. I'd love to know what's useful and what's not so useful so that I can iterate future episodes for you. 

Until next time, keep exploring and keep growing. But remember to take the time for recovery and reflection. I'm Nirish Shakya, and this has been The Design Feeling Podcast. See you next time. [01:14:00]