Going to jail to save the world - Sam Griffiths

Nirish Shakya: [00:00:00] next question is something that I don't really get to ask many people, especially many designers. 

Intro

Nirish Shakya: What was prison like? 

Sam Griffiths: um, frankly it's a bit shit.

Nirish Shakya: Today, I speak with designer, climate activist, and my good friend, Sam Griffiths.

Sam Griffiths: we hit 40 degrees in London for the first time. And there were wildfires in and around London.

Nirish Shakya: And that led Sam to question his role as a designer.

Sam Griffiths: I could continue doing that my whole life and not really shift the needle. I thought I had to do something more than that to really make something meaningful happen.

Nirish Shakya: Sam joined the environmental activist group Just Stop Oil, and took part in the climate protests in London, where he got arrested and jailed for 21 days.

This is a story of a designer who stood up for what they believed in despite the consequences of those actions.

Sam Griffiths: A lot of the work I've done looking back on it, there's some things I'm very proud of, but there's a whole lot of it that was just, about making [00:01:00] the economic wheel turn and, that's not good enough right now because just making the economy turn is, is just perpetuating the status quo that is destroying everything.

Nirish Shakya: I expect this conversation to be pretty polarizing.

It might deeply resonate with you or maybe it might rub you up the wrong way. But please do hear Sam out because it takes a lot of courage to do what he's been doing.

and if you're passionate about a cause, but you've been feeling too alone to do anything about it.

Sam Griffiths: The question is, you know, what can we do? I'm just one person. And the answer is Don't be one person.

Nirish Shakya: Sam Griffiths, welcome to Design Feeling. How have you been? 

Welcome

Sam Griffiths: I've been very well. Um, thank you very much for inviting me. Um, it's, it's a, uh, a real pleasure to get a chance to chat to you and, um, yeah, no, I feel very honored. So thank you very 

much. 

Nirish Shakya: Great great to have you. Um, You know, you've been a keen supporter [00:02:00] of, um, Design Feeling and my work, um, even before I started the podcast and think, um, it's my honor to finally have you join us, uh, in the hot seat today. Um, so Sam, imagine that they made a movie out of your life. Where would that movie start? Describe that first scene, the opening scene of the movie. 

Sam's Life Before Activism

Sam Griffiths: Uh, well, I don't know. 

The Turning Point: Climate Change Realization

Sam Griffiths: It feels like my life is in It's in two parts now, um, like, so I'm, I'm, I'm now like very involved in, in activism and up until the summer of 2022, I wasn't. So it sort of feels like that was a crux moment for me in terms of, um, a lot of things changing. Um, so I [00:03:00] think if you're going right to the heart of it, I think it would be July, 2022 20 22, would when it would be when it started.

Nirish Shakya: Okay. And why did you pick that date? 

Sam Griffiths: Because that's, um, that's the date when we hit 40 degrees in London for the first time. And there were wildfires in and around London. Wanstead Flats, like only a couple of miles down the road from us was on fire. And, um, I was, I was cutting up pieces of cardboard to block skylights and windows to keep the temperature down.

Um, and I just had a very, had a very visceral insight into, um, my son's future. Um, so, um, um, yeah, my son was 12 at the time and yeah, I just, I just [00:04:00] knew that this was a temperature that wasn't predicted for the UK for, you know, we should be hitting this until like 2050, you know, for kind of more conservative, like, assumed paths for how climate breakdown goes.

Um, so to suddenly hit that. In the summer of 2022, just, it just scared the shit out of me. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on the podcast. Great. Okay. Uh, so yes, it scared the shit out of me and, um, um, and I, it's something, you you know, climate collapse, climate breakdown, the crisis we're facing is something I have lost sleep about for years.

Um, And, and I've done bits of, you know, signed petitions and went to my MP and I've gone to the odd demo. 

Sam's Journey into Activism

Sam Griffiths: Um, but once that moment had happened, I, I felt I couldn't, I couldn't, I had to do [00:05:00] more. Um, it, it just, it was, it was just really stark and I just felt it very deeply. And, um, and then I was from that point on, I was looking for a way to connect to something that was.

Um, much more meaningful in terms of action. 

Nirish Shakya: that was basically a a twist in your in in your movie pretty much let's say. Right? That's where your your new story actually started in that movie. How was life like before 

Life Before Activism: Career and Personal Life

Sam Griffiths: Um, well, it's quite a lot of life before then. Cause 48. So, um, uh, yeah, I grew up in the Northeast, um, had a very, uh, pretty nice childhood. Um, I studied, um, graphic design. In Glasgow, um, for a BA and then did an MA down in Brighton, um, and then started to work in, um, [00:06:00] branding. So the the first company I worked with, uh, was called the partners and they were quite big, um, but I was just.

Um, an intern there and then worked in different scales of organization, um, you know, like four, five, six person teams, and then companies of upwards of a hundred. So I've had quite a lot of experience of working in different places, um, towards the end of my time working in branding. I did do quite a lot of freelance work, so I think, um, and, and then I did a stint, um, at a place where I was doing quite a lot of corporate stuff, um, and I stayed there for about a year, um, and then I realized I had to do something, uh, different because, um, something about it wasn't resonating with me and I've got a much clearer idea about what it was now, but at that time, it [00:07:00] just, It just didn't feel right.

And, um, and so I, I, I, I then started working at Red Badger where we have both worked, uh, which is a tech consultancy and I was working to manage, um, their brand. And at the same time I was launching my own business. So I was working several days a week for Red Badger and a couple of days a week on my stuff.

And I, and I set up something called Griffix cause my name is Griffis and I make graphics. So it's Griffix, 

um, which is terrible then. Um, And, and, and cause I've always been very interested in play and its connection to creativity. And I wanted to see whether it would be possible to use play to help other people access their creativity.

Cause I'm really, I'm really interested in having ideas myself, but it's really exciting when you get other people having them. Um, so I got very interested in that and ran lots of workshops [00:08:00] and, uh, community projects based off of that. Um, lots of it all within London and quite a lot of it, like very locally to me in Northeast London.

And it was great. I really loved it and I felt very connected to it. 

The Impact of Climate Change on Sam's Life

Sam Griffiths: Um, and then, and then this moment hit and I realized it wasn't enough. So, um, I could continue, uh, doing quite, there were the workshops I was doing. Quite a lot of it was addressing, uh, uh, climate and it was using recycled materials and it was about raising awareness, but I thought, um, once we had realized the gravity of our situation, I realized that I could continue doing that my whole life and not really shift the needle.

And I had to do, I thought I had to do something. Um, more than that to really make something meaningful happen.

Nirish Shakya: So walk us through what was going on through your mind, uh, now that you've had that you had that visceral [00:09:00] moment where, like, okay, you know, it's 40 degrees in London, which is pretty much, like, I know it was, like, unprecedented. Um, what was going on through your mind in terms of, like, what did you wanna do this from from that point onwards? 

Sam Griffiths: Well, the first thing that struck me was, was how little that impacted the media. So, um, so I'm, I'm feeling like a visceral panic about we're in this situation and. My God, we got to do something. And then that is completely not reflected in the media. Um, and certainly not in government, um, in the, in the actions and inactions that the government were, were part of and continue to be part of.

Um, there was a I just, it's just such a disconnect from the reality I was experiencing and this, this other reality around me. And, um, so I was desperate to find [00:10:00] people who felt the same way and felt the same urgency. Um, so it was like, it was a huge relief. Just seeing, uh, just stop oil, uh, uh, like taking action and taking this like really seriously and talking about it in the, in the terms that I could, like, I could recognize like in terms of gravity, they were taking it or communicating it with, um, So that just, it really resonated and I thought, right, I've got to, I've got to find out more about what they're doing and how they're doing it and, and can I get involved?

Um, so, so that the, my, my immediate reaction was like, I've got to do something and then connect to something. Um, and then, yeah, they're just up over there and, and that's what I latched onto.

Nirish Shakya: Okay. 

Joining Just Stop Oil: A New Chapter

Nirish Shakya: So for those of us, you know, who don't know about Just Stop Oil, we haven't heard of them, if you could maybe give us a 30 second elevator pitch of what what who they are and what they do. [00:11:00]

Sam Griffiths: Yeah, sure. 

The Mission and Impact of Just Stop Oil

Sam Griffiths: Um, uh, if you've not heard of Just Stop Oil, I, I, I'd be surprised because we've been pretty active and, but, but, um, but the, the elevator pitch is, is, um, it's about stopping all new, um, fossil fuel licenses, you know, consents and licenses. So that means, um, uh, not commencing any new projects. So any new, uh, uh, oil exploration in the North Sea or any new coal mine or any new natural gas.

Um, we have, we already have, um, like eight years worth of reserves of oil, like with what we already have. So we don't need anything new. We've got more than enough to, to get us through a fair transition. Um, and we have to call a halt at some, at some points because there's just, uh, uh, We're just insanely putting more carbon into the atmosphere and that's just going to continue to warm us.

[00:12:00] Um, so this is longer than an elevator pitch. Um, but, um, so, so that, that's the, the, the, the demand. There were, they're kind of supplementary demands, but the core demand is to end all fossil fuel, like exploration and, and new projects from, from happening. And the way we're doing that is, is through civil resistance.

So it's not just. Pitching up at, at a, at a demo on one day and then saying, okay, that's fine. Well, I've done my bit. It's, it's about being, um, in resistance to a government that we know is criminal and is in the midst of, um, in the midst of perpetrating a genocide, frankly. So, um,

Nirish Shakya: that? 

Sam Griffiths: so,

um, 

The Reality of Climate Change and Government Inaction

Sam Griffiths: So,

um, it's called genocide by, uh, Implies, uh, sorry, oblique intent.

So. Um, our government know that the [00:13:00] combined actions and inactions of the status quo are going to lead to hundreds of millions of deaths and, um, the, these deaths are preventable. So if we change course, we can prevent all of this. Um, and what's maddening is that they know it's going to happen and they are doing nothing to change that.

that, course of action. Um, so it's not like, so the thing that's different about, uh, the genocide that the Nazis perpetrate is they built ovens specifically for the purpose of extinguishing life and extinguishing a people. What's happening now is, is that, is that the conditions just happened to have arisen that will kill hundreds of people.

And it is genocide because. The government refuses to take the action that it knows will save those lives. And, um, and it's not just the government, it's finance, it's [00:14:00] insurance, uh, it's the media. Um, there are, there's a whole web of complicity that is leading to this, this genocidal situation. So it's a big part of what we're doing now is highlighting the individuals who are responsible.

So wish you soon at the head of our government, uh, well, so, so on. Who's the CEO of, of, um, of shell? Um, these are key figures that we must. Pinpoint and make it really clear that these people are responsible for these, for these, like the worst crimes imaginable. Um, and we have to make the public realize that they're happening.

Um, because obviously, you know, the BBC is not telling us this. Um, so we're having to do an awful lot. In terms of raising consciousness, just about the severity of the situation we're in, but also like, like there were crimes being perpetrated and [00:15:00] these, these people and, and this in our current system, these crimes are not even being investigated, nevermind prosecuted, but on the flip side of that, the people they are investigating and prosecuting are the people doing their best to highlight the situation.

So, so those of us in, Just up oil and in other organizations, um, are being, um, laws are being specifically written to, uh, to repress our action. Um, and you know, we're seeing, um, many arrests and we're seeing people, um, uh, thrown in prison, um, because of this, uh, repressive state that we're living in. Um, and this is because.

Our government is, it's not acting in our interest. It's acting in the interest of fossil fuel, you know, and, and the kind of, uh, the fossil fuel kind of, um, status quo, um, Um and the core purpose of government is [00:16:00] to, is to protect its people. And this is, this is a fundamentally where it's failing. So it's not just protect.

It's not just failing to protect us. You You know, it's going to, this is going to. profoundly affect our lives. Um, but it's also consigning millions of people to death, you know, through, through its actions.

Sam's Arrest and Experience in Prison

Nirish Shakya: I mean I can definitely, you know, feel your passion for this issue and how, um, how much you care about this. Um, so there's quite a few organizations, you know, that are working actively, um, on this issue. Um, what led you to, you know, pick or be part of just just up oil?

Sam Griffiths: Um, I, I was very moved by how they're taking action. So, uh, all our action is, uh, fundamentally nonviolent. It's about civil resistance. So it's putting your body in the line and putting your body in the way of harm. [00:17:00] Um, and, um, with all the risks that that incurs from, um, from angry members of the public to, uh, repression from the state and, uh, fines and imprisonment.

Um, but it's incredibly, I find it incredibly, um, eloquent morally, you know, uh, that people will. Will put themselves through that because it's so important, I think for me, it communicates just the severity of the situation. Um, and, uh, and yeah, I, I, so I, I think, um, I'd, I'd seen, um, video of people doing, um, various bits and bobs, like.

Blocking roads and, um, uh, uh, occupying, um, uh, oil refineries, um, and, you know, and, and what have you, and, um, seeing them risking arrest and, and everything, and I just, [00:18:00] and I think that's a really good point. I thought I'd really want to be brave enough to like, take that kind of action. Um, and I was just, I was inspired by, by that level of, of commitment.

Um, and like active love really.

Nirish Shakya: And you then, you know, were part of, um, some of the protests. Um, tell us tell us about that experience. 

Sam Griffiths: Well, I I first got involved in actually taking action in October of. 2022. And during that phase, we were, we were blocking roads in and around London. So focusing the, uh, the protests on the seat of power in the capital. Um, so I, I was involved in, uh, in three different roadblocks during that, those events. Um, and And And I was arrested all three times and all [00:19:00] of those cases have, yes, all of those cases have, have now gone to court.

Um, the first of which, so I didn't know I was going to go for, get arrested three times during that phase. The first. first. Time I took action was on October 2nd and, um, we had a march going from central London down to the river. And when we reached Waterloo Bridge, we, we stopped and we blocked the bridge and there were, it was over quite a long time.

And people just sat down and some lay down and it was quite quiet. It was quite dignified. And. And then it was made clear that anyone who was going to stay in the road was going to risk arrest and those who didn't want to risk arrest, they should move to the side. And so lots of people moved to the side and quite a few people stayed.

And I was just on the curb and I was sort of in an in between space and I had [00:20:00] 20 minutes while people were being arrested to have a think about like what I was going to do and what kind of step I would take. And I was just deeply moved by. Um, by the people taking action there, which was, there was a couple of people who work in the NHS and they had their blue scrubs on and there were a couple and they were just sat down in the road and they were just hugging.

Um, and it was just something quiet and quite dignified about it. And. uh, And I thought over those 20 minutes, I thought, well, yes, I think I could stay. And, And, um, and then I did, and, and I was at, this was towards the end of it. And I think maybe 40 people got arrested on that day. And I was one of the last and, and quite a few of us, we wouldn't walk to the vans.

Uh, I also asked the police [00:21:00] officers to, to, to carry me, which they weren't very happy about because they were knackered, um, by this stage. So I got carried to the police van and then, and then taken down to South Croydon, I think it was. But it was all quite gentle and the police officers. Were briefed to be quite respectful of us because I heard the briefing before they came into arrest us.

And I, so I had a very gentle introduction to taking action and being arrested. And I had some time in the moment to think about it. And, and then in the cell, um, um, I had some time to like really digest it and and coming out and seeing the other people who'd been arrested at the same time, there was. um, What we do is we make sure there's always police station support.

So people who, who have been arrested when they come out, there's somebody there with a mug of cocoa and some biscuits and, and a nice friendly face just to make sure people are okay. And they, they can get to get home [00:22:00]because often you're released, you know, in the middle of the morning, maybe three o'clock in the morning and stuff.

And this was, I think we were probably. Yeah, about, about maybe a bit earlier, maybe 12 or one or whatever. Um, so the person there, there were two people there, they looked after us and then one of them drove and was able to drive us to the station so we could get home. Okay. Um, it was really lovely and it just makes you feel really held.

Nirish Shakya: So Sam, next question is something that I don't really get to ask many people, especially many designers. What was prison like? 

Life in Prison and Maintaining Resilience

Sam Griffiths: Uh, oh, um, frankly it's a bit shit. Um, so, so I, um, so yeah, I got arrested, um, most recently in the last, last action phase we had, which was. From the back end of October through November to the start of December, and we were slow marching again in, in, in the city. And, um, [00:23:00] I I was arrested on the second march of the action phase, um, and it was on, uh, Cromwell Road, which is a road that leads to the Natural History Museum.

And I'd be marching about 15 minutes, and then there was about 50 of us in the road, and everyone who was in the road was arrested. Um, I was then held overnight. And woken up at three o'clock in the morning by the death sergeant and a detective saying, we're going to push really hard to remand you. Um, and then explained their rationale.

Um, and, and then the next day I was in court and, uh, and yeah, it didn't go well. The, the, uh. The magistrate asked the prosecutor. So, so what were you doing about bail conditions? And um, the prosecutor kind of checked his notes. He didn't seem to be too bothered either way, but he said, Oh no, yeah, we, we'd like to ask, we would like to push for remand.

And then the magistrate. man. And then the Talk to you with all the other [00:24:00] options that were available to him, such as putting me on a tag and like, which is effectively house arrest or, um, or excluding me from certain parts of the city or what have you. Um, but he asked me, uh, the key question was, uh, are you going to, um, Reoffend before, um, this next court dates.

The next court date would be 28 days later. And in my mind, I knew I would reoffend because I'd gone out that day to be arrested for the first time that I wanted to be arrested multiple times during that action phase. So there's no way that I could honestly say that I wasn't going to reoffend. So what I did, I explained to the magistrate.

Why I'd taken that action and that, and that had only been in the road for 15 minutes. And you know, this was just exercising what has previously been a long held British freedom of, of, of marching. Um, and, um, and he said, okay, but I think you're dodging the issue. [00:25:00] Would you re offend? And, and then I took. A few seconds to think about what my response was going to be.

And then the judge said, from your silence, um, I understand what your answer would be. Um, so I'm going to put you on remand. Um, and then he said, um, you'll be remanded to the next court date, which was. November 28th. This was November 2nd. So that's, so this would be, the court date was November 30th. Sorry.

So it'd be 28 days, but he said, legally, we can hold you until May and so that's six months because, because that offence now under the new public order act, 2023, 20 23, marching in the road now, um, is Is punishable with a six month sentence. It could be longer than that because the law is untested at the moment because it's so new.

Um, but yeah, this is the public order act that came out in [00:26:00] 2023 was written by policy exchange, which are a think tank, a right wing think tank, which is, uh, Fossil fuelled, um, it's basically funded by fossil companies, uh, fossil fuel companies. Um, they, they drafted that legislation, which Yasunaka has actually thanked them publicly for their work on it.

Um, so this deeply repressive, and I would say fascist legislation, because it doesn't allow for free speech. It doesn't allow for, for real effective protest. So effective protest means disruption on some sort of level. Um, because that's where, that's where it's leverage is. And if you can't protest effectively, then no protest is possible.

Um, so we're in a, actually, frankly, quite terrifying situation now where, where effective protestors is all but banned and punishable by prison. 

Reflections on the Experience and Future Plans

Sam Griffiths: So, so so yeah, so. So cuts a long story, story short, I was, um, I was remanded, so, [00:27:00] so this means I wasn't found guilty of anything, but because of the risk of me re-offending, they, they felt that the risk was so great of that, that they would, they, they needed to put me in prison.

So I ended up in, uh, wandsworth, uh, prison and, uh, Wandsworth isn't great. Um, so, uh, most British prisons aren't very good, um, but Wandsworth is one of the worst ones. Um, it's a remand prison, so most of the people in there are, haven't been found guilty of anything. They're waiting for their court, 

their cases to be heard. They haven't been convicted no. Um, so, um, so yes, so I was, I was then in Wandsworth prison for, for three weeks. 21 days. So I got out of it earlier than the 28 days. Um, and it was, it was quite an education, you know, it's, it's very revealing to see how society treats people that it doesn't consider desirable.

Um, it's, it's. [00:28:00] Also quite shocking. Um, yeah, it's, um, it's really quite grim and I think, yeah, the conditions in Roman prisons are pretty terrible because they're, they're, they're very overpopulated, you know, um, the, the Wandsworth prison was designed by the 170 years old and the Victorians actually designed those cells for, for single occupancy.

And every cell in Wandsworth is occupied by two people. Um, and when you go into your cell, when I went into the cell, I couldn't quite believe that two people would fit, you know, nevermind spend most of their time in, in that space. Um, yeah. And it was filthy. Um, and And I'm, uh, just getting used to the idea of sharing with this person I've met literally five minutes ago, uh, Dave, who happened to be really a very pleasant guy, actually.

Uh, so I, but that's complete lottery, you know, you have no control over [00:29:00] like who you're going to be sharing with. Um, so I ended up sharing with three people over the course of those three weeks, um, moving from different cells and different wings. But I I got, I lucked out on all of them. So, so Dave, uh, Peter and Devin, who I shared with all very considerate and, um, and calm, which was a huge blessing.

Um, but, uh, but nevertheless, it's, it's, it's quite something to come to terms with when, uh, you walk into the cell and then you, you're trying to process how tiny it is and what have you, and then, and then the door closes and you just got to get on with it. 

Um, so, yeah. 

Nirish Shakya: point, like when the door closed? 

Sam Griffiths: Well, um, I, I, since I got in there and since I didn't expect that magistrate to come to that conclusion.

So this is putting people in jail for marching is [00:30:00] an extraordinary thing. Um, and it's not happened before and no one really expected. them to And then to go down this route. Um, so I wasn't prepared, uh, uh, kind of emotionally for this. So I was in shock for the first 24 hours. Um, and, but I did, I did do a lot of work, uh, through that time.

Uh, just. in terms of controlling my breathing so that I could kind of, uh, remain as calm as possible because, and the thing that, that seemed to be key for me through the whole experience was while I was calm, I was able to cope. Um, so just, it was very important to me that I, I, I kept a on things like emotionally, um, and just regulated as much as I could.

And, um, So there's one really simple breathing technique, which is just, just to, you know, take deep breaths, but make sure that [00:31:00] your out breath is longer than your in breath. And it's a very, it's a great hack for getting out of fight or flight response. And, and then it gives you a bit, if once you're out of that, you can actually get above the lizard brain and actually engage the frontal, you know, frontal lobes.

And, you know, you can think rationally. And so that really helps, you know, so that, so calming down in those first 24 hours was about breathing. And then over the next few days, it was about, um, doing yoga in the mornings, um, uh, to try and give like, A bit of calm and clarity in the mornings, um, and then take that through the day and then gratitude, like doing gratitude exercises.

So, uh, the first time, Oh, so much. Um, so the first time I did that was the first time I got out for exercise, which was about, I think the fifth or sixth day in there because we were in effective lockdown, which meant we didn't get out of the cell more than an hour a day [00:32:00] for those first few days. Um, uh, but once I did get out for exercise, I.

I also found that initially quite stressful because that was the first time I was in amongst a big group of people, um, because I'd spent all of the time just in the cell. Um, so, but what I did was, um, in Wandsworth prison in the prison yard, you, you walk anti clockwise because everyone does and it doesn't change every day.

So it's anti clockwise, um, cause there's not a lot of space. And, and if you walk the other way, there's one way traffic. Yeah. But it's, it's, it's one of the, it's one of these things that there's so many rules in prison, but they're just. the things that Very little of it is explained. You just gotta pick it up as you go along.

But one of the rules is you walk anti-clockwise in the exercise yard, um, but it becomes quite hypnotic. Um, you just going round and round and round and, and I started doing this strategy exercise while I was walking, and the combination of the two was, was I found quite profound. But I was, you know, initially.

I was thinking about my [00:33:00] son and my wife and, uh, the life we have and stroking my dog's ears. I thought a lot about food that I loved because the food in there is like pretty awful. Um, uh, so it was lots of, you know, big things. Emotionally, the people that are important in my life, my family and friends, but also small, very small things.

Um, but I had, after doing that for about 20 minutes. And having this kind of hypnotic walking around around this incredible. Profound calm just came down, um, down on me is it was amazing and, and I was literally beaming, you know, um, and which was a lot quite odd, but, but it was, I found it very profound experience actually.

Um, and it taught me a lot about, you know, Where resilience comes from, um, um, and, and [00:34:00] yeah, I was profoundly grateful for that actually. Um, so that, so that, that really, so the simple things like that helped a lot. But another thing that really helped was, um, um, I got, I received a huge amount of, uh, mail, you know, letters and cards and emails.

And. And it was just a, just fantastic to have that, that connection to the outside world. Um, and that, and speaking to, um, my wife and son on the phone, um, so there is a phone in the cell, you have to get credit for it. And it's the fleecing the prisoners actually, it's very expensive. Um, but, um, but getting to speak to them every day was, was, was, uh, essential as well.

It was, it was amazing. Um, but yeah, those, those, those. Those connections to the outside were hugely important.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. And I remember seeing some of your, you know, sketches, uh, that you had done when you were in the in the prison. [00:35:00] Uh, we'll post a link to those sketches in the show notes as well. So if you'd like to check out, um, prison looked like from the inside for Sam Griffiths, Uh, yeah. Please do check out those beautiful drawings that, you know, Sam has made. Um, tell us about these drawings. Like, what, um, you draw your

Sam Griffiths: Um, well, it was, it was something to do. Um, so, um, I did a few things that I wrote an awful lot in there. I wrote an awful lot. I wrote a lot. I wrote quite a lot of letters, which I never write letters, but I really enjoyed writing letters and then responses to emails. Um, and then. 

Artistic Expression in Confinement

Sam Griffiths: And then also I wrote an account of the whole experience.

I started kind of halfway through and then wrote like all the way along. Um, I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do with that, but it was just really helpful to get that out of my head. But part of that was also drawing and just capturing. The environment. 

The Power of Drawing and Creativity

Sam Griffiths: So the [00:36:00] first drawing I did was just of the inside of the cell from my view on the top bunk.

And I was using the, um, the inside of the, or the outside of an envelope that some of the emails had come in, um, and the window of the envelope I made. The, to coincide with the cell of the door, um, and the lovely thing about the window is it's open. Um, so that was a way of imagining, you know, that being open and, and I sent it to Sari and with a letter and then asked her to put some backgrounds in it.

So she made a lovely sky that is in the background of it now. 

The Prison Environment and Its Impact

Sam Griffiths: Um, and then, um, and then I also, I, I wanted, what I didn't try quite capture there was just the, the feeling of the space. So then, I I've managed to order a couple of things through, um, through canteen, which is their system for, as a touchscreen screen things, and you have money on your account and you can buy [00:37:00] snacks.

And I bought a reading lamp and then the reading lamp didn't come with batteries. So it never worked, but at the box I opened up and then. I just adjusted the proportions of a bit and made them the same or very similar to the cell and then drew the interior of the cell on the inside of the box. It just means you can fold up one corner or a couple of corners and get a real feeling for actually what it feels like spatially.

Um, and, uh, so that's, so that was good to articulate, but both those drawings, I was able to spend a lot of time just noodling the details and, um, that was just quite. therapeutic and, uh, and nice activity to do. And then, and then I did one drawing outside, uh, looking from the landing down, down the wing. And I 

Interactions with Fellow Prisoners

Sam Griffiths: And I was a bit more nervous about doing that drawing because it was out, I was outside of the cell.

So those other people could see you drawing. Um, and. I've done quite a lot of [00:38:00] work to be as invisible as possible, really. Um, so this was me taking more of a risk about like, uh, but in the end it was all fine. And I had quite a few people coming up and having a look and taking an interest. You know, this was officers and, and, uh, other fellow prisoners and had some really great chats off the back of it, you know?

Reflections on the Prison Experience

Sam Griffiths: Um, so this was Towards the end of me being in there and I was starting to feel more, um, you confident in the environment, I think, um, and able to kind of, you know, I was still kind of really quite careful about what I did, um, and what I said, where, um, But, but I'm great. I'm glad I was a little bit braver and, and, and did, you know, did something demonstrably creative in there.

Cause it's like, there's, there were very few opportunities for people to do that. Um, [00:39:00] so, so yeah, that was, that was, that was good. 

The Architecture of the Prison

Sam Griffiths: And, and, and I also really wanted to capture the building cause it's a, it's a, it's a kind of amazing structure. Um, there are six wings off a central core, um, I think that it's a panopticon is the style.

So it means that when you're in the center, you have visibility or everything in the prison. Um, so panopticon I think is, is everything and seeing is, is the Greek root of that, I think. Um, And, and yeah, you, we were on the fourth level and there's three levels underneath you, um, and then the wing extends quite far.

It's just quite grand really. It's quite an amazing structure.

Was the Protest Worth It?

Nirish Shakya: So after you went through, after all this, was it worth it? 

Sam Griffiths: Yes. But well, um, yeah, for me, absolutely. I think. [00:40:00] The present thing was a shock, but it really, really connected to a lot of people, a lot of people like within the community, but a lot of people who were on the edges of it and aren't directly part of Just Up Oil, like wrote to me, um, and were moved by the action that I'd taken, um, and like moved to write, but also emotionally moved, I think, um, and that felt very meaningful to me.

Um, So I also think like us being, there were 10 of us who were remanded and put in prison during this phase, um, and 13 people had tags put on, so we're under house arrest during this phase as well. But us taking that step and having this, this experience, um, it does help communicate and [00:41:00] shame this government.

You know, it betrays. their lack of care and compassion, um, and their callousness. And, and it also helps communicate this horrible slide towards, uh, the right. And, you know, I don't use the word fascist legislation lightly, you know, but These are, these are real freedoms that we've always, that we've held, are very long held and we're losing them.

Um, and we're losing them because the government, uh, wants to silence dissent and it wants to silence the people who are ringing the alarm loudest. And that should scare everyone, you know. Um, so take, by taking this step, by putting ourselves at risk [00:42:00] and. consequently myself, being put in prison, it helps highlight what's happening.

And, um, and and I've had lots of very constructive conversations off the back of it about that prison experience and the situation that we're, we now find ourselves in. Um, so I think, um, all in all, I think it was, it was worth it and, and it was a valuable experience in, in a few different ways. 

The Power of Collective Action

Sam Griffiths: But the most important feeling I had was, uh, one of, um, huge empowerment because Up until that point and before taking action, I'd always felt utterly hopeless. No, no, not hopeless, helpless in the face of what we we face in terms of. Climate collapse. It feels like so, so huge. And we're so small. I mean, what can we do?

And, and also in the face of a state that doesn't care and is, is actively [00:43:00] destroying things, like how, what, what can we actually do with that? But, but actually stepping into arrest, I felt. I did do something and I was part of something and I felt my personal power in that moment and I felt a connection to collective power as well, which is actually more important because I think we're 7 billion people struggling with this or feeling we're alone in it.

And we are, we are until we come together. Um, and there's a, there's a, we turned that thought into a sticker, which just says, you know, the question is, um, you know, you know, what can we do? I'm just one person and the answer is don't be one person. Um, so, and it doesn't matter which group you, you become part of, but the really important thing is to become part of a group that's doing something about this.

Um, this isn't just a cause, this isn't just. another thing that would be a [00:44:00] nice to have or a better way, a slight kind of tweak on society. This is, this is existence. This is, you know, this is an absolutely existential threat to everything that you know and love. Um, and yes, that's overwhelming, but it's much better to actually engage with that and, and realize the severity of it and look it like right down the barrel and By taking collective action that's enabled me to do that and I can sleep now because I was spending years like, um, distracting myself from what's happening and, uh, you know, just society is built for that.

It's built from, for all of these distractions, but it's, it's much better to actually, um, um, live with the, the, the grief and the awful reality, but in a mode where you can do, do something [00:45:00] about it. And the only way we can do something about it is by, is through collective action and, and working in community.

Um, and that's what we, that's what we desperately need. I found that I think it's what, what we also desperately emotionally need is to connect to others. Um, the state of. Neoliberal capitalism that we live in is all about individualizing us, um, and boxing us, uh, separating us. We're much more, um, we're much more profitable to sell to in that way.

Um, so that's, that's why it's happened, but it's destroying us, you know, and, and we need to come together, um, emotionally, but also in action.

Nirish Shakya: You 

The Role of Designers in Social Change

Nirish Shakya: know, we're we're both designers and, you know, we we both design for other humans, you know, to take on our on our human centric lens. What can we do as [00:46:00] these human centric centric problem solvers to bring people together to turn, you know, individuals into this collective? 

Sam Griffiths: Um, yeah, well, I think, think, and this is where my beginning. to slightly Controversial stuff and I might be completely inaccurate with it. So there's the caveat aside because I'm not been in the design industry for a long time. But the thing I felt when I was in the industry is that designers are a little bit myopic and they, they, they're very focused on.

On their problems that they want to solve, and that makes them really good at what they do, but I think we need as designers, we need to kind of, we need to get our heads up and we need to be engaging in the wider context. And, um, uh, it's not good enough just to be a good designer and to do the best job you can.

It's not good enough to be a great craftsperson, um, [00:47:00] and, and kern things. Better than anybody else can or choose the best typefaces is like, it's like, um, we'll be using the right, the best tools. I think we, can, as designers, we, we get a little bit too obsessed about the details. And I think we have to be thinking bigger picture.

Um, and, and that is, that means just kind of. Getting our heads up and looking around and really engaging with, with, with what's happening around us. Um, so I think that's one plea to designers generally is like, it's like, really look at what you're doing and, and think about what, what the ends are of what you're doing.

The Importance of Meaningful Work

Sam Griffiths: Um, and, uh, if I'm asking my wishlist for designers as well would be, you know, another one would just be, To, uh, prioritize meaning over, over money. Um, so really connect to something that, that is in [00:48:00] your heart and work for that. Um, and you know, we have access and we are. You You know, design is a superpower and, uh, we just have to be using it for something that's constructive.

Um, and I think, um, a lot of, and this is speaking personally, a lot of the work I've done looking back on it. There's some things I'm very proud of, but there's a whole lot of it that was just, um, about making. The economic wheel turn and, and that's not good enough right now because that the, the just turning, making the economy turn is, is just perpetuating the status quo that is destroying everything.

So, so this is why I mean, why we have to, we have to kind of step back and step above, take a helicopter view of, of what we're doing. We might do be doing an absolutely amazing job in the context of [00:49:00] what we're doing. But you doing an amazing job is like, if you look at the wider context, actually quite destructive.

So we, it's just really hard to, this is really hard stuff. And, and I'm sure there's people going to be screaming at this thinking like you're asking too much. Um, and I've got to pay the mortgage and all these things are true. Um, but I do think that, um. When you engage with that, if you can connect to something that is deeply meaningful to you, you will do better work and you will do work that's better for everyone.

Um, so, so that, that, that, that would be my, that, that would be my plea is like, and I think one of the routes for doing that is stopping. So take a sabbatical, stop for two months and give yourself a chance to really think and feel. Um. Like an engage with what's happening in the, in the [00:50:00] world. Um, because I think the other thing that we were doing as busy people is we have lots of urgent things.

In inverted commas that are crowding for our attention and just, if you can stop, you can actually, um, you can really engage with, with the state of things and what's 

actually happening, 

Nirish Shakya: yeah I can definitely relate a lot of what you're saying. And also, it takes a lot of courage to be able to stop and zoom out from your day to day. Um, and this is from my own personal experience, you uh, the reason I got into design was so that actually I could use my, you know, creativity and my craft to build products that had actually, you know, help people do good things for the world. But as I grew in my own career, um, as I started take taking on, you know, new clients, you know, new job titles, Somewhere along the way I kind of lost that mission, [00:51:00] um, because know there was this shiny new things like a a nice paycheck, you know, a nice job title, um, you know, career progression. And you just get kind of sucked into this, uh, wheel of comfort that is very difficult to get out of. Um, and after I moved to London, you know, for example, like, I was in a unique situation of, you know, being a non UK citizen, being sponsored by my, you know, employers. And, you know, it was very, very difficult to get out of that, um, I guess, golden handcuffs in a way to then think of, like, what what what matters to me in the grand scheme of things. what what what would you recommend? What what advice would you give to designers or anyone working technology, product development, you know, any of those big industries? Um, what is the smallest step that they can take, um, let's say today. Right? What is the smallest [00:52:00] step they can take today to, um, start, something in motion, um, you know, over the long run.

Sam Griffiths: to, to, to start, what kind of thing, Neeraj, Neeraj, what kind of thing would you, would you Are you imagining, uh, or is it just like to start reformulating their relationship to their work

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. I guess what I'm 

Sam Griffiths: and the world or, 

Nirish Shakya: you know, a lot of us, we we know what is the right thing to do, but we don't do it. 

Sam Griffiths: Hmm, yes.

yes. 

Nirish Shakya: know, like, we need to, you know, exercise regularly every week, you know, drink lots of water, uh, not smoke, not drink, and so on. But we don't do it. 

Sam Griffiths: Yep. 

The Power of Community and Connection

Sam Griffiths: Um, well, yeah, I've got, I've got a, I've got a few suggestions, I think. I think it's really interesting you framing it in that way and, and, and hearing about your experience. I think. [00:53:00] I think money and status, uh, are traps. I think you're completely right about that golden handcuffs thing. So, so, um, thinking about that is, is really valuable.

I think comfort is, is a really interesting one. Um, and I think using discomfort as a compass as like, as a part of your moral compass is, is really, uh, useful. I think we know a lot in our work, um, where, you know, certain. Things are quite uncomfortable to do, but they're often the most valuable. Um, so that might be in terms of workshops and, and, uh, or difficult conversations.

You've got to have the discomfort is actually, it's a signal that that's of worth, um, not to be too masochistic about it, but, but I think that's absolutely true about like taking the action I've taken is like, like lots of it is actually. Really quite uncomfortable to do, but it that signals it's worth.

Um, I [00:54:00] think one thing I'd urge everyone to do is just read less is more. So that's a very good encapsulation of, um, uh, what's wrong with the economy and, and also like the second half is all about, well, how can we fix it? Um, so that's really great context. So reading that would be a really good move. Um, move. I think, um, yeah, taking some time off.

is really good, even if it's just a day or a week or a little sabbatical, you know, um, just, just really give yourself a bit of space to actually think about your relationship with your work and what you're doing. Um, and. And, and you just really interrogate that question. You know, what the fuck am I doing?

You know, um, it's, it's, it's an important one. It's not, it's, I think it's most important question you could be asking yourself right now, uh, and really interrogate it. Um, [00:55:00] so, and I think that can be done. You know, over a lunchtime, but, you know, so you could really start engaging with that straight away. Um, and, and yeah, and I think it's, it's, it's so worth it really interrogating, like it's, Well, am I a bit trapped by what I'm doing and am I connecting to, to stuff that really is important to me?

Those are like absolutely vital questions and, and, but I do think you need to take, you need time to kind of digest that and process it and really work through it. Um, what else would be good?

Yeah. Oh, and then the other thing is like, uh, talk to your neighbors. So, um, so try and break down that thing of, of, of us being a little bit isolated. Um, I think. Um, one of the things we're really going to need [00:56:00] over the next couple of decades is, uh, is resilience. That's both personally and in terms of our communities.

So start now, talk to your neighbors, get to know them, um, make friends with, with your local community. Join groups that are based in there, um, think about growing your own food. No, this, um, the, these are things that we really need to engage with and, and, and, and be working on collectively. So, so yeah, start by.

Like talking, if you don't know your neighbors, get to, get to know them. And, and if you don't know the people on your street, get to know them first street party, try and get those, those, uh, local relationships, like like just foster those local, uh, connections. Cause I think they're going to be incredibly. Well,

Nirish Shakya: Um, what's the second thing I should say to start that [00:57:00] conversation?

Sam Griffiths: Well, I think everyone actually hates small talk, you know, so, so really, you know, so, so, so, so talk to me about this stuff, you know, and like, like, um, uh, yeah, invite them in for a cup of tea and like, yeah. You know, know you know, yes,

yeah, I mean, it's difficult, but, but, uh, but I do think it's really valuable. And again, there's a discomfort there because, you know, we're, um, being British means you never talk about anything of substance. Um, but, but. But it means, but it's really good when you do, you know, and, and people, I think actually lots of people are dying to be able to talk about this stuff and, and everyone, I think everyone in their bones knows that the current system is fucked and, um, and we need to be talking about that.

We need to be talking about, like, how do we come together? How do we do things better? Um, how can we bypass? [00:58:00] The current systems and the elites that are running things that so badly, you know, um, so, so I think all of those conversations are super valuable.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. So, you know, little little actions you can take for all first of all to create space in your own, um, environment and your own head to be able to zoom out and see the bigger picture in terms of, like, where are 

Sam Griffiths: Yes. 

Nirish Shakya: the actions you're taking right now, um, and what really matters to 

Sam Griffiths: and 

Nirish Shakya: Uh, and then 

Sam Griffiths: yes, 

Nirish Shakya: circle to include the people to you. There could be, you know, people you live with or people, you know, your neighbors, uh, potentially colleagues. 

Sam Griffiths: I I love that phrase, expanding the circle. I mean, that's exactly what humanity needs to do. You know, this is, this is the work that we need to do, like collectively is expand the circle, like in our lives with our families and friends with our local communities and then, and then with nations and across. Uh, borders, you know, [00:59:00] we, we've radically got to expand the circle of, of empathy and connection, but we can start right now with, with our neighbors, you know, um, and I think, you know, um, talking to your neighbors is a radical act right now because we are so disconnected and it was, it actually was one of the posters from the 1968 student uprising, um, if you're not familiar with them, um, Look them up.

There's a, the students had a whole part of the art school that were just day and night printing, uh, silkscreen posters, putting them around Paris and, uh, they're absolutely amazing. But one of them, there's the headline is, is talk to your neighbors. Uh, it was a radical act then, it's a radical act now, uh, but it's, it's a really good place to start.

And then I think the other thing is, is, um, if you feel. Like I, I was and am, you know, like. In a panic about what we [01:00:00] are doing with the climate and what we need to do is join a group. So, um, just go to a welcome talk, um, and find out a little bit more about how they operate and find something that, that you resonate with.

There's a lot of groups out there and they're all doing things in different ways or taking action in different ways, find what connects to you. Um, so that's another way that you can be not one person, you know, be part of a group. Um, because we, yeah, we desperately need collective, collective action. And as I say, it doesn't matter what the group is, it's just join one and start doing things.

Nirish Shakya: There is definitely more power in being part of a group than, you know, being an individual. And sometimes we can, like you say, we can feel so powerless because we just, you know, we might be thinking about a lot of these issues that we care about, you know, not just climate change, but it could be, you know, so many other, you know, issues, um, that that matter to people. [01:01:00] we might feel or, um, helpless to take that first step towards maybe even having a simple conversation. 

Sam Griffiths: Mhmm. Yes. And, but you can start anywhere and, um, and also there were some really good posts that went out at new year about like what, you know, 20 things you could be doing around climate and, and taking action is just one of them, but there were some really constructive things. Um, and yeah, I mean, if, if, you are working in a deeply corporate environment, working less is also where to collect.

act. You know, um, like, uh, don't do any overtime, um, maybe work fewer days a week, you know, that, that is, you know, if, if, if you know the work you're doing is toxic, do, do less of it. Don't, you don't, don't need to kind of jump into doing something [01:02:00] completely straight away, but there are, there are. Those kinds of things are, uh, are powerful and also that by stepping back a little bit, it gives you a little bit more space to actually think about, well, what do I really want to be doing with my time? 

Nirish Shakya: This this is really fucking up with my mental models here. In terms of how I think about, you know, work ethics and, uh, what I've been trained to do as a worker, like always give you hundred and 10 percent and, you know, always be your best and do your best and, you know, go for that promotion and whatever. but I'm I'm I'm I need to get used to this concept of working less as a radical act. It's it's fucking off my brain right now. 

Sam Griffiths: Well, um, well, yeah, and I think rest is actual rest is a radical act. You know, there's, there's a, there's a, um, organization in the U. S. called the NAP ministry. And that, that, that whole thing is about actually, you know, um. It's very toxic. The framing we have at the [01:03:00] moment around work and giving you all to it and, um, uh, deriving all your meaning through work.

I don't think there's too much meaning in a lot of work. It's, there are proxies for meaning and the proxies are money and status and maybe awards and, and also that kind of feeling of, of A job well done in the craft that you've done, but they're proxies for real meaning. So I think that's the thing I come back to is like, it's like, what do you actually really connect to?

Um, and, and once you have connected to that, you will so much more, you'll be so much more engaged with, with what you're doing. Then you are, if you don't have that, that kind of engagement with meaning. 

Nirish Shakya: I love that. 

Sam Griffiths: Because I, cause I'm, the interesting thing that's happened for me, like with JustUpOil is now when I'm designing for JustUpOil. So I've come full circle. I've come back to doing [01:04:00]

like, you know, yeah, back to the craft, but, but also, um, you know, I've doing like. Lots of, uh, you know, quite run of the mill practical day to day things that just enable things to function.

Um, so a lot of it is kind of what we might think of as like bread and butter work, but because it's connected to something that I'm deeply emotionally connected to. I derive a huge sense of meaning from what I'm, from what, from that work that I'm doing and, and, and try and make this, the work I'm doing as good as it can be.

I've always tried to do that, but, but now there's a, there's a real, there was a real engine for that. And that comes from, uh, like connecting to, to something of real value.

Nirish Shakya: Love it. So Sam, throughout this experience, you have had to, [01:05:00] um, experience a lot of confrontation. You know, confrontation will starting off, you know, with the public, with the authorities, with the judges, you know, with, you know, prison officials. so, you know, from my own personal point of view, I've always been scared of confrontation. I've always been taught to be nice, you know, play nice.

Um, if you care about something but you're too scared to, scared of confrontation, what what can I do? 

The Challenge of Confrontation

Sam Griffiths: Yeah, I think, I think, um, I think I've Spent a lot of my life being scared of it too. And, um, um, you know, I think as designers, a lot of us, and I definitely include myself in this are in, in veteran people pleases, you know, we can't help ourselves, you know, but, um, [01:06:00] but I think this is part of of taking a bigger view on things is like how constructive.

Is being, uh, in quotes, nice, you know, there are things that we must act on and that we must communicate. And those things are, uh, difficult to talk about and they're challenging and it means actually upsetting people. And. Talking about having to live our lives in different ways, and I think there was those two.

The counter to that is there's also lots of positive things you can be talking about because of those changes, but that's not to minimize that. These things are. These are difficult conversations, and I think part of Those challenging conversations is embracing confrontation, um, and seeing the value of it.

Um, there are things happening right now that we cannot accept, [01:07:00] you know, because they're so unjust. Um, and we've had 40 or 50 years of people asking nicely. Like saying, look, please look, it just makes sense to say it it it's, we have to be looking after the environment. We have to, um, be respectful of other people.

We've, um, the thing, the thing that's, um, the problem with that is asking nicely doesn't work. You know, we've had, uh, uh, the, the, the whole kind of, um, lobbying side of things. Um, I respect, yeah. But it's just not up to the job, especially with the timescales we have. Um, so I think we, we really have to, um, interrogate what has to happen.

We have to think very clearly about what has to happen. And then we have to [01:08:00] think about like articulating it and, and speaking to people. So this comes back to those conversations with your neighbors, like. Talking about, uh, these more difficult, um, topics, these more difficult conversations, um, does involve some level of confrontation.

Um, but. There's real value in it. Um, I don't know. Does that make sense?

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. I think, um, I find, you know, what you've done very inspirational because, um, I, you know, have to be honest, I probably would, you know, wouldn't have had the the same kinda level of courage that you have displayed inspired a lot of people to your actions, and I'm hoping that, um, this plants in people's bodies, and souls [01:09:00] then want to not just care, but actually take act their own action, uh, for the things that, you know, they care about. 

Final Thoughts and Reflections

Nirish Shakya: yeah, Sam, thank you so much for sharing your story and your experience and your insights from what you've gone through. 

Sam Griffiths: Oh, thank you so much. No, I really appreciate it. Could, could I just add one final thought? I would just, I think, um, I think not, none of us who are taking this action are braver than anyone else. Um, but I think one of the things that I've really learned is about stepping through fear, so you're still afraid, but you will, you step into it.

And, and then I also spoke about empowerment. That's where it comes from. So knowing, knowing that something's going to be difficult and doing it anyway, um, and living with that discomfort and living with the fear is, um, is hugely empowering once you've, once you've done it. [01:10:00] Um, and you know, then you know you can do it and you can do it again, but it doesn't become.

It doesn't become you don't become braver, but you become more used to like, like living without fear and stepping into it.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Just being used to the discomfort because the discomfort doesn't go away, it's just that we we get more resilient to it.

Sam Griffiths: Yes. Yes, exactly. Um,

Nirish Shakya: I think the the the key takeaway from this conversation for me has been about taking time to stop and reflect on what matters to you, uh, rather than it's like what you said around being myopic and just, you know, being part of your daily routine. Uh, it can be so easy and comfortable to just get sucked into that. But is it actually taking in a direction that really matters to you? And yes, to take even if it's just a day [01:11:00] of that to see, yeah, what really matters and where where where is where is it that you actually wanna take your life. And then, like we said, expanding that circle beyond yourself because a lot of times we might be thinking, hey, I'm just 1 person, what can I do? And like you said earlier, don't be 1 person. maybe like make it 2, maybe speak to someone you know about it, about what you're feeling, what you're going through and see how that resonates or lands with them. Um, yet whether that's talking to your neighbors, um, joining a community, a group that actually is working on some of these issues that you care about. Um, I also love what you said around how working less is a radical act. Something I need to kind of think of how I can do this in a in a practical sense as well. Um, and also thank you for sharing your, um, your memories and your vision of, you know, what prison was for you. I think it was [01:12:00] it's something that a lot of us, you know, never get to experience. and just being able to see through your eyes can be very eye opening there. Um, and yes, stepping through fear. sometimes the fear of fear never goes away, but we just gotta get used to that, the the the discomfort that fear brings and be resilient so that we can achieve the meaning that we we seek as human beings. And thank you for walking the talk and showing us the way through your actions, Sam. Um, it's been so inspiring to see or see your journey throughout this whole process. And I would like to wish you all the best for the next part of the journey as you fight for your cause and hopefully take more and more people along in this journey. yes, our cause. Um, our cause. Um,

so if people want to reach out to you or follow your work, uh, or connect with you, how can how can they do that? [01:13:00] Um, well I'm at, at gr, which is G-R-I-F-F-I-C-S, uh, on Instagram. Um, my website is griffics.com and, and then, um, and then I'm doing a lot of work, uh, for Just Stop Oil as I've mentioned. Um, so check out their website, which is just do oil.org.

We'll put those links in the show notes, and we will see you again soon, Sam.

Outro

Nirish Shakya: So, what did you think of the conversation? 

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