Following your heart and empowering young people with Design Thinking with Jenna Maudlin

Nirish Shakya: [00:00:00] Hey, how's it going? We're almost halfway through the year, and this is going to be our last episode for season three before we take a break and return in July. And today I'm speaking with multi award-winning designer Jenna Maudlin. Jenna is currently working with Apart of Me, a charity empowering children and young people to cope with loss and trauma. This episode is jam packed with inspiration. We'll dive into Jenna's story of following her heart as a designer and why timing it right is crucial. Jenna also shares our experience co-designing with young people as therapeutic intervention and using design thinking to empower young people with 21st century skills and keep listening if we'd like to be part of Jenna's exciting new project.

Shivaun: This is the Design Feeling Podcast with your host Nirish Shakya. 

Nirish Shakya: [00:01:00] Hello. My name is Nirish Shakya and I'm a human-centered designer, educator and coach. And this is a podcast for well, human-centered designers and innovators and problem solvers who tend to forget the human within the. The conversations you'll hear will help you increase your self-awareness and creative confidence so that you can make the impact that gives you the joy and meaning that you seek.

Let's get started. 

 Jenna Maudlin, welcome to Design Feeling. How have you been?

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah. Good. Thank you. How are you?

Nirish Shakya: Pretty good, thank you.

 So Jenna, imagine that they made a movie out of you, out of your life. where would that movie start?

Jenna Maudlin: Ah, I think that, it would probably start,kind of, I suppose growing up in lower and just [00:02:00] kind of, taking me or taking viewers through, a bit of ups and downs of growing up and, Finding out more about what the world is like. and then taking, like, it would then kind of, get me all the way up to like my move towards London where I went to uni.

but yeah, I think like just showcasing the ups and downs of being a kid in lowest stock would probably be quite an interesting movie in itself.

Nirish Shakya: Did you say low stock? Was it

Jenna Maudlin: Loof, yeah, it is, the most eastly point in Britain. and it's a very small town with like a harbor and just, it doesn't have a lot going on. and yeah, some people leave, some people don't. I actually went there yesterday, just for like a walk along the beach cuz it's right on the beach, which is really nice.

And just like having a look at how much it's changed since I, since I left like 20 years ago.[00:03:00]

Nirish Shakya: Cool. Yeah, I, I haven't been to that part of the world, but I've definitely been to the we, the westernmost point in Great Britain, which is, Landsend in Cornwall, which is really beautiful.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: Very windy, though.

Jenna Maudlin: yeah, I actually cycled Lanzen to John Groz back in 2011 I think it was. So, have seen the most Wesley Point and also the most point, just still the most sub point to go. I think.

Nirish Shakya: Oh wow. Wow. Awesome. so then how do you end up from there to what you do now? as a designer?

Jenna Maudlin: So, it, it's been, it's been a bit of a bumpy road, I suppose. Really just kind of going from, this person growing up in, I suppose quite a deprived area of the uk. Like, lowest often Yama for quite, deprived and. Figuring my way through, all of the challenges and things.[00:04:00] and I think part of, yeah, I think part of the challenges and things that I went through growing up have actually informed where I've ended up. ended up in my career. So in terms of my journey being quite bumpy, I originally, my, my main goal for going to uni was to get away from where I was living, from lower and go to London and see like the bright lights of London.

So I went to art school and didn't really think about what I was gonna do after that. It was just, I'm gonna go to art school, I'm gonna make some stuff. And, yeah, I didn't really think that through too much. It was just I need to escape lower stuff and go somewhere that's a bit more interesting and learn more about the world and more about life, and then ended up like in customer service and stuff for a while and wasn't happy. And then moved up to Scotland, which was a completely different change, a again, [00:05:00] and ended up working more in fashion. I, I mean, I was working in kind of retail and fashion and customer service beforehand. and yeah, and just kind of trying to find my way through things, figuring out what I liked and what I didn't like.

I knew that I really wanted to help people and I kept justifying to myself working in fashion as in like, people get outfits and it makes them feel happy and it makes them feel confident, and that's how I'm really helping people who are helping them pick those out. I was a brand manager and a buyer who I was buying a lot of the clothes in and like showing,creating social media so that I could show them kind of how to wear stuff together and doing visual merchandising, which was really great.

but then, We had an intern that was working, helping us build our website, and she told me about this course that she was doing, which was Digital Interaction Design at University of Dundee. So I made a choice to go back to uni for a second [00:06:00] time and do a second undergrad, which again, I don't think I really thought that through.

I probably could have gone another route to get into design, but I mean, I, I think that's the kind of narrative that I was given is if you wanted a career, you went to uni. and that was just very much still ingrained in my way of thinking. So did a second undergraduate. It was actually the best decision I think that I've ever made.

But it still maybe, maybe I could have had a different route. and when I was at uni, I started exploring the idea of working with kids cuz my brother and my sister-in-law just had, their son, so my baby nephew. And for me, I wanted to envisage a world which would be better for him. So I started designing products that would help kids more in kind of playful situations or education situations.

And then, once I got into my career, I was really looking for, for that [00:07:00] and went to the bbc, was hoping to work at in Children's. didn't work in Children's, but what I did do was give me the opportunity to find out about a part of me, which is the charity that I'm now working with. And they're on a mission to help, children and young people deal with loss and trauma. So, and for me, like my personal, it really resonated with me when I found out about, the charity because my mom passed away when I was 22. And I wanted to make sure that for me it was like I understood how difficult that was for me to deal with as a 22 year old. And I wanted to make sure that children and young people, kind of young people the same age as I was, or children younger, had support that they needed to make sure that, it was an, it was an experience that, wouldn't have a detrimental effect on their mental health and something, providing support for them so that they could get through these difficult times.

So that's kind of where I'm at now and why, I suppose, why it really matters to me to, to be [00:08:00] part of this, this really powerful mission to help children deal with some of, the, the most difficult times of life.

Nirish Shakya: So any same of the most difficult times of life, what are you referring to?

Jenna Maudlin: So I think p predominantly we are working with children, that have experienced, that are experiencing grief. They've experienced loss bereavement, but we have also. Just released, just recently released an app, that came about as a part as because of the Ukraine War. And the idea was to create an app that would help parents and children connect, in a playful way so that they could kind of heal through their trauma.

So we've been working on this app that improves the bond between parent and child, which in terms of trauma work is one of the key protective factors that can prevent things like PTs d or support going through traumatic experiences.[00:09:00] we're now kind of developing a strategy further to see what other interventions we can create and where else we can help with our experience and the way in which we do things.

So at the moment, they're the two areas that I've working in, but I think we difficult, difficult life situations.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. So you are operating in this, intersection between design, play education, and therapy. what does, what does that look like on a, on a day-to-day level?

Jenna Maudlin: it looks different every single day. Is, the best way to put it, I think so I'm where, where I'm working with the charity, we're, we're volunteer led. I work there full-time, but I am the only person that is full-time, so it can mean many different things in each day. and although I'm primarily a designer, and [00:10:00] that is, where my expertise lie.

It means working with people that work in education, obviously talking to teachers, working with young people, talking to children, mostly through co-design workshops. talking to parents, but also working closely with our clinical team and working with kind of anyone, most people that would be able to support us in being able to bring these projects to life.

Everything from kind of research to evaluation to project management developers. So it's such a varied role. and it's, I think for me it's using my design kind of mindset to, to bring that perspective to every task and activity that it is that I, that I do, which can be very, very varied. so yeah, I think.

I think that's one of the, one of the most beautiful things about the role is that it is very different and, it's also, as you say, like players, one of the biggest things, I [00:11:00] think as an organization that we're trying to do, so it can mean working in very playful ways, gonna be running lots of co-design workshops with, children in schools and Ukrainian families for developing further things for the, the app that we just released in Nadia.

so getting to actually work with them in playful ways and develop something and design something with them that's gonna be really useful. It's just, it's a great feeling as you could probably imagine.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah. And, and, and sounds like you get a lot of meaning out of what you do.

Jenna Maudlin: Oh yeah, a hundred percent. And I think, ultimately that is the reason why. I got into design was to be able to help others. And working with the charity and working on these kind of projects allows me to do that, in one way or another and be able to, because we do, because we do things through co-design, [00:12:00] it means getting kind of instant feedback and working alongside young people.

So you really get to feel and see the journeys that these young people go on when they go through these co-design workshops, how they come to you versus then how they are at the end. And you get to actually really not just see that, but feel that as well, which is really, really amazing.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Tell us more about how you designed these coded co-design sessions with, with children.

Jenna Maudlin: So my. So my first experience of doing that was through a project we did a couple of years ago with the Mayor of London, and it was called Loss in Translation. they'd set Mayor of London and Nester had set, a challenge to help. It was all around to help in London be resilient and bounce back from Covid-19.

And we were designing, we were part of a challenge with some other finalists that had been chosen [00:13:00] from app, from an application form to pitch an idea and that could, work as a service to support, people disproportionately impacted by the pandemic, by creating a culturally competent bereavement service.

So for us, we wanted to co-design a toolkit with them, with, young Londoners from. minority ethnic backgrounds who had been disproportionately impacted in areas such as Hackney. for example, and it was, it was all during covid, so it was all online, but we worked with the clinical team to create this.

They, they'd created this clinical framework, which was around transforming grief into compassion. So on the team that were building the workshops, we were working with young designers, that were new to the industry that had experienced bereavement and, they weren't [00:14:00] necessarily living in London, but they, and they didn't necessarily have, they weren't necessarily breed during Covid, but they had had ex lived experiences of grief.

to be honest, the majority of our volunteers, the majority of our team do have some kind of lived, experie lived experience with

bereavement. 

Nirish Shakya: do you think that is important part of being a designer?

Jenna Maudlin: lived experience, it's a difficult one. I think it can really, I think it can help, because that, kind of empathy and compassion for others that you have, having experienced something like this can help you to put yourself in the shoes of others. But at the same time, it is hard to distance yourself from your experience versus somebody else's.

So sometimes you do have to take a bit of a step back and really make sure that your insights that you are getting are ones that are not biased by [00:15:00] your own experience. So I think, I think the fact that the majority of volunteers have lived experience with bereavement is, is that's the reason why they're there to volunteer cuz they want to help others that have been in their situation.

Nirish Shakya: Does it make it easier for them to empathize with the people or,

Jenna Maudlin: I'm, I'm, so, I don't, it's a, I I guess it varies from person to person. I'd say per, I can't really speak on behalf of anyone else but personally having, having lost my mom at 22 and I lived in London at the time, I had an understanding of how the system in London works from Borough to where, I moved in that time being 22, I was at uni, so I was like moving around quite a lot.

and because I was experiencing symptoms that I didn't realize were grief at the time, And the, they were more kind of physical symptoms and the doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong. But because I was bouncing from place to [00:16:00] place, and had to start again from doctor to doctor, I kind of understood some of the challenges that might, that might have been faced.

So I think in terms of that, it helped me understand that there was a problem, but then being able to empathize with people really was still listening to their stories and talking to them. And I think it helped with the group that were facilitating the workshops to be able to also share their experiences to the young people felt safer.

They felt more, like they were in a room with people that had had similar experiences to them. So it gave us a connection, in terms of being able to empathize I massively between the situation and what you have in front of you. So that's, that's a really interesting question cause I'm not,

not a hundred percent sure on the answer there.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Cuz the reason I ask is,throughout most of my. Career I worked on, projects for my clients or for, companies I worked [00:17:00] for. but didn't necessarily mean that I had lived experience being a customer of that product 

Jenna Maudlin: Mm-hmm. 

Nirish Shakya: was designing for. So I'm just curious as to, how having that lived experience can benefit your approach or your process and your, all your outputs.

Jenna Maudlin: I think, so if I compare it to where I've worked in, health tech before, but I've been working on projects that are, to do with things like Parkinson's or Alzheimer's, for example. I don't have lived experience of either of those. Not personally. So it was a lot of like learning and understanding the kind of, I suppose the.

the challenges and the pain points that, that, those particular users might have, whereas working within the grief space, having had a lived experience, you have a, you have an experience, you have a perspective that you can bring to it. The problem though, is just if you are [00:18:00] not able to see outside of that perspective.

So I think it's just really important when you are working in stuff where you have that lived experience or that familiarity that you are able to distance yourself from that experience when needs be. but it is a challenge definitely,

Nirish Shakya: yeah,

Jenna Maudlin: I'd say.

Nirish Shakya: yeah. Because I guess, it, it does take a lot of self-awareness to, first of all be aware of, the experiences you ha you've had. and then being able to look at it, like you said, from a distance through a neutral lens, rather than getting. Kind of too tangled up, up in it. And assuming that the, the people that you're designing for would be going through kinda similar experience.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah, I think trying to, so we've got, kind of methods in place to keep, I suppose, assumptions in check, which is, we kind of work with hypotheses. So we will say, well, this, this is our hypothesis based on research and experience. And then [00:19:00] we do the research to see if that hypothesis is true or not. So I think it's just really scrutinizing our own assumptions and making sure that we're not taking them at face value.

Has been, something that, I suppose it's still a work in progress and just making sure that we are coming at it from that perspective. I think as well, like I've got, we've got quite a large design team and everybody brings with them their own kind of experiences and reasons for being there. So being able to collaborate and share and making sure that we've got this safe space where we can talk about our, different experiences or what our insights we might be able to bring, does help to kind of neutralize that a little bit.

But as, as well, I do think it, like, it is a bit of a challenge to kind of distance yourself and make sure that you're not bringing any of your own cognitive biases into the mix.

Nirish Shakya: Absolutely. Yeah. So how do these, co-design sessions with children, how are they different from, let's say, a [00:20:00] co-design session with adults?

Jenna Maudlin: So we really have to think about it. Do it does largely depend on the age of the child. I think if you're working with Under elevens, it's very different to working with over elevens and like over sixteens. You can pretty much, it's, it's quite similar, there's a playful element to it, but because we are working with sensitive subjects, making sure that we're taking the pace quite slowly and there's time for reflection and for questions.

and there's not too much pressure necessarily on like a traditional design sprint is really important to, to factor that in. and when, and I think when we're working with Under Elevens a lot of the work, so I've, I've done a couple of play testing sessions. I say I've done quite a few play testing sessions with Under Elevens.

So really it's been giving them the thing that we're testing the prototype and observing what they do and [00:21:00] don't do with it or kind of giving them a prompt around. so one, one that we're working on at the moment, which is to do with creating new, exercises for the Nadia app. we are getting them to think about their own inner strengths.

So we'll ask them, what's your superpower? And give them some prompts in how to figure out what they believe is their superpowers is something that they like about themselves. If they're struggling, they can ask one of their friends. Or in the family sessions, they can ask a member of their family what they like about them so that they can get to this sense of something that's really strong about who they're, and we get them to design themselves, as like this kind of superhero or this character as they're in a strength.

and then we ask them to use that in a strength, or that character they've designed. And imagine that that character is creating an exercise to help somebody else feel better in a [00:22:00] specific moment.

Nirish Shakya: You mean like a physical exercise?

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah, so the way that the app works is we use kind of proven therapeutic techniques, which could be creative exercise in real life. It could be kind of shaking or dancing or moving around. usually it's doing a thing or doing a thing together or asking each other questions. And so we ask them in to, to create, It's like a, I suppose it's a tool or a strategy or an exercise.

We call them charms in the app. So we refer to them as charms in the workshop. but we get them to create these for themselves. So in a moment where maybe they're feeling really stressed or they've got moments of anger they can remember their techniques on, like how to feel calm and they can remember what those are.

And hope, the hope is that they can introduce those into their lives cuz they've been helped to create them and it's come from something within them. So it's a mixture of things really. Some of the exercises [00:23:00] that we have in the app are what they would do in the app, but the majority of them are things that they can actually do in real life.

So it's that, kind of physical digital connection side of things when it comes to what we're creating for the app and what're, when we're doing these co-design sessions.

Nirish Shakya: I find that absolutely fascinating and I think even I would benefit from that, from that app as well. Cause, so often, even, and, and as adults, we, we don't know our strengths. we don't know what we're good at. We think we're good at something, but you know, we, there's something we are even better at and we tend to either not be aware of it or be oblivious to it because we have this idea of what we think we should be good at, which might not be our natural strength.

Jenna Maudlin: Mm-hmm. 

Nirish Shakya: and also what I love about what the, your methodology is, you're not just using your strength, just feel good about yourself. You're actually using to, to help others.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: Where did this idea come from?

Jenna Maudlin: So when we [00:24:00] were, it's, it's kind of, it feels like a mixture of different influences, I'd say. so when I joined the charity, one of the questions that was always asked, as you joined the charity, you were filling out some of your admin work on notion, for example, to introduce who you're, one of the questions actually was just asking people, what's your superpower?

So when we were designing the workshops for loss in translation, myself and Sonya, who's one of the people that I've been working with, she also helped co-design the, a part of me game. And I think it might actually be something from that where we would just start with an icebreaker of What's your superpower?

and we had that for all of the workshops that we were, all of the workshops that we were doing. So when we were creating Nadia. I think from a clinical perspective, so, a member, a member [00:25:00] of the clinical team, Louie, who's our co-founder, and he's the clinical lead. It's very much what we do is very much about thinking about the answers that you, that you are looking for are usually inside you.

And it's all about trying to coach those inner strengths to come out. And it's cultivating these qualities of, in the Nadia app, cultivating these qualities of calm, compassion, and courage. And these were kind of the qualities that we, we thought would be most beneficial, for people that are, were going through trauma.

So I think it definitely came from, from a clinical perspective and something that they've managed to bring very creatively from the work that they do. And when thinking about how to run these co-design sessions, we really wanted to make sure that they had been themed around the Nadia app as much as possible.

Cuz the story's quite engaging and for young kids being immersed [00:26:00] in something, which is kind of this fantasy world, just makes it a little bit easier to deal with when we're talking about difficult things. although that's, that's the theory anyway. So like that, that's kind of what we're, this storytelling is a really great way of introducing these topics without it being too heavy or too much.

So just thinking about like the exercises and what we're wanting to do through the co-design workshops is to create more charms. So these are exercises designed by kids for other kids. It, it made sense to, to try and open up these different pathways by thinking about kids, inner, inner strengths and their, their different superpowers that they can bring and how they can use them to help themselves and others.

So it's definitely come from like the clinical perspective and just getting quite creative with the story and just thinking about how we can, how we can make the app as useful as [00:27:00] possible, but we can also make the workshops really useful for those that attend.

Nirish Shakya: I love that. What are some of the, the coolest superpowers that you've seen coming from children?

Jenna Maudlin: So, we've, we did a design challenge at the start of the year, where we introduce this cuz we've only just started working with under elevens, and we've got. we've got more workshops coming up soon. so we set this design challenge for, for a school a couple of months ago now. but we didn't actually build in the superpower thing.

so I think also like the development of the workshop has come from this design challenge that we set. cuz some of them created characters where they were creating characters with different superpowers. So,

Nirish Shakya: matching.

Jenna Maudlin: yeah.

so we, so, so we just, so when we, when we saw that and we had some that had followed the design brief and some that had kind of chosen, chosen something else to do and [00:28:00] they had created these characters and they'd explained them as well.

things like, Things like bears that, have energy to spare, I think was one of the, one of the, one of, one of the superpowers. But I think a, a lot of the superpowers that we see come through from like, working with young people, so like our 11 plus, it's usually things around listening and caring or being curious, being creative, being able to sing.

I think, one of them, one of the funniest ones I think I had, was at a university from a university student who said that they worked at Tesco, so they got discount and that's their superpower. So I think it's so

op it's so open to interpretation. and yes, it's so open to interpretation, which I guess makes that question just really, yeah.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. And, so Jenna, what is your superpower?

Jenna Maudlin: So mine [00:29:00] is relentless curiosity. I got feedback, from like colleagues a couple of, a couple of years ago when I was working at the BBC as part of like my performance review, and they said that I was relentlessly curious, so I was like, I'm gonna steal that and that's gonna be my superpower from now on.

Nirish Shakya: Love that.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah. So that, that's it. I don't, I, I would say that I think, although that's something that other people have said about me, I would probably say compassion, is something that, that is my own personally, I would say is my superpower. And yeah, just making space to listen to people and trying my best

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah.

Jenna Maudlin: to, to help and support.

Nirish Shakya: I love that. I, I recently did a strengths profile test and one of my top strengths or superpowers that came up for me was, being a connector. So I apparently am good at helping see connections between things, making connections between people.[00:30:00] and I was like, yeah, maybe that's me because I do kind of like, for example, love bringing experts like yourself into this platform and see like where, how things are connected.

Where can I join some of those dots? And yeah. And I think it's like so important for us designers to be aware of our own unique superpowers. Cause a lot of times when you, when you going into, into the industry, you basically see a job description of what you're meant to be doing. And every job description sounds the same, right?

It's like you've gotta be able to use these tools, you've gotta be able to run these workshops and do these prototyping and whatnot. But then, How would you approach those roles and responsibilities? Right. What kind of strengths that you bring to the table that no one else has or combination of strengths?

and I think feel like design education is kind of like lacking that aspect a bit.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah. I think, I think to, to me [00:31:00] that's the beauty of having a design team is like people that can bring different strengths to the table. And almost like when you see those job descriptions and they're, some of them are so extensive and so long, and it's almost like you have to be everyone for everyone all at the same time.

Nirish Shakya: The unicorn designer.

Jenna Maudlin: Which just, which just isn't, isn't like feasible really for everyone to be able to do everything. So I think, and I think. it's so easy to focus on what we're not good at or what we're not doing right, or things that we need to improve on, that oftentimes celebrating what we are good at and what strengths we do bring to the table.

And what unique parts of unique parts of the design job we can, we can do really, really well. I think we don't, I don't think we necessarily celebrate ourselves enough,

which is, which is a real shame. when I, and I, I, I kind of see working with designers [00:32:00] quite a lot is like there's imposter syndrome that starts to creep in because maybe there's a part of your practice that isn't as well developed as something else.

But that's such a shame because these designers are so talented and they do such amazing things in other ways, or they have a unique way of approaching things and. I think we just have to wear so many hats that it's difficult to see the difference between sometimes between what we are and aren't, what are our strengths, and to just celebrate those.

Nirish Shakya: Absolutely. And I think that's where, I think we need to be careful who we pick as mentors. Cuz if we're looking up to someone who has totally different set of strengths to you and you're trying to basically territory and emulate that, it's not gonna work. You're just gonna burn out because you're not gonna enjoy what they enjoy doing.

If, if you set yourself that benchmark that is not achievable for you and you are enjoyable or meaningful for you.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah, completely. so when I, when I joined the bbc, I joined as part of the [00:33:00] UX trainee program, which was great because you got the opportunity to go around different departments for an entire year. So you'd spend 12 weeks per department and you got to work on different projects. So you actually got to see what you were and weren't good at and be able to like, reflect and evaluate on what it is, not just what you were and weren't good at, but what you wanted to do and what you didn't wanna do.

And I almost found working in something that I didn't like and realizing what I definitely didn't want to do, or that maybe wasn't a strength. It's okay that it doesn't need to be a strength necessarily. I don't have to be good at. for example, visual design. I don't need to be the best person at UI design because there are people that are so good at u UI design and you just make them part of your team, right?

So you just, you, you co you collaborate and I think being able to, collaborate with other designers and learn more and develop and having that kind of learning mindset is just re for me it's really [00:34:00] important, to, to have that. and yeah, I think through that year as a trainee is like, learning that I don't have to be great at everything was so freeing.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

Jenna Maudlin: Because you realized that in most, I think in, in most organizations, in most companies, you will have a team to, to rely on and you can learn really well off other people. So, Yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it is a shame that, like I say, it's a shame that we don't always celebrate what we're good at.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah, and I, I totally agree. Like we do have that negativity bias when it comes to, at our own strengths and maybe kind of brushing them off a bit and then only focusing on what we're not good at and trying to get better at those things. which in my opinion is not, probably not the best strategy for create growth.

but something that I'm starting to [00:35:00] realize as I mature within my own career in terms of, Hey, you know what, it doesn't matter if I don't enjoy everything right? But there are, there're definitely things that I do enjoy. And, and like you said, there are other people who might enjoy the things that you don't enjoy, and you can come together and work together as a team and make something even better.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah. a hundred percent. it's okay. It's o I think design is so broad. It's okay not to like doing the certain thing. and figuring out, I think figuring out what you don't like doing is just as important as knowing what you do. So it's, even if you just try lots of different things and see what works for you and what doesn't, that's absolutely fine.

So I think that's been, like I said, I think that's been one of the most freeing parts of my career was going through that year as the, as a trainee and being able to figure those things or some, those things at least.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah. And speaking of, strengths and skills, I know you were super passionate about u using design thinking to empower young people to [00:36:00] build their, what you call like 21st century skills. so how do you, what kind of role do you think design thinking can play in that?

Jenna Maudlin: So, I think my ex, my experience of working or finding out about design thinking was obviously through going, back to uni and I did a module called Design for Business in my final year and. We had to write a dissertation and it was around like creating a business, and I had no idea what I wanted to do.

So instead I wrote about design thinking, and how, I really enjoyed running. And I thought, what might be quite good, good is to just randomly come up with a how might we, I think it was something like how might I, it was how might I not, how might we, but how might I leverage my passion for running to design a service for other runners?

and I [00:37:00] wrote my entire dissertation using a design thinking process to,

Nirish Shakya: Love that.

Jenna Maudlin: explore that, which made it so much easier to write. and I got the chance to kind of create a project and like go through different design thinking methods. And it just, it kind of all fell into place I suppose. When, I was doing a workshop at, back, at my old uni a couple of years ago, and we set the, we were, we were looking for ways in which to improve the initial, a part of me game, the one to support young people through grief.

And we were looking at this idea of how self-compassion can have, or habits of self-compassion can have a big impact that prevent, that help young people feel more hopeful in times of despair. So we set them a design challenge of how might we help young [00:38:00] people build habits of self-compassion and. kind of taking them through this design thinking process where they could bring something to life.

They worked in teams, they got to, they got to kind of understand a little bit more about grief and the problem that we were trying to solve. So from that perspective, we weren't really sure. This was the first time that we had kind of done this with a group of young people where they may or may not have had lived experience of bereavement.

So it felt, it's obviously a really difficult topic for people to talk about. So we weren't really sure how that was going to go, but it was quite inter, I think, because we were coming at it from a design challenge perspective. and these were design students, it just made it a lot easier for them to engage with such a difficult topic.

And because we were coming at it from the lens of building habits of self-compassion, we noticed that, the young people found it. Like we, we [00:39:00] did a survey afterwards and we found that the young people found that combination, these different tools that we were giving them in terms of like, proto, personas and prototyping, different ways of prototyping.

They felt like they had gained skills that will help them in their future career. But also that the self-compassion was really useful. one of the young people actually said that, cause I was speaking to her during the lunch break. She was saying that they had lots of deadlines the following week.

So having a design sprint felt like it was the most inconvenient time, and they were worried about the extra pressure that was adding. But because it was around building habits of self-compassion, they actually decided they would be kinder to themselves. And as a result, they enjoyed their learning experience a lot more because it bec because of the topic that we were dealing with.

So it just kind of sparked a thought really of like, how can, how can design thinking, combined with I suppose social emotional learning help develop these [00:40:00] 21st century skills? and. When I think about what we do in design thinking and during a design sprint, we've got things like empathy and perspective taking.

We have creative problem solving and decision making, and then when we combine it with the social emotional learning, we are also giving them, or kind of empowering them to come up with solutions that would help them when they're going through those times. So it was just, it was kind of a bit of an experiment.

It was just interesting to see what the impact was, and it just sparked quite a lot of inspiration from there.

Nirish Shakya: I love that. I love how like, like one thing has led to another and you've been able to basically capture all that and, turn into something, of a tangible output. So Jenna, like something that you know, I know that you've done really well is to follow your heart, in your work in terms of. Seeking [00:41:00] out things that you find, meaningful and and purposeful for yourself. So, for example, working with, for young people, using design, helping them, build these skills.

if someone is listening to this right now and they are feeling a bit lost or, or stuck, doing something that they don't find, meaningful, or they don't find that that's where their heart is at, what advice would you give them?

Jenna Maudlin: so I feel like I was, I, I think I was in quite a similar position at the time when I found the charity. I was working on a project that my heart wasn't in, and I knew that I wanted, I, I knew that I wanted to work with young people. I knew that I wanted to make a difference in people's lives, but I didn't really know how to go about doing that.

so from [00:42:00] my personal, per, from my personal kind of experience, what helped me be able to move into this kind of work was to actually volunteer with the charity and cause I started off as a volunteer and to get involved in something that actually really meant something to me. And even though to begin with that was maybe like four hours a week, that's now led to me being involved with the charity for nearly three years, and I now work.

With them full-time. I'm can't say that that's gonna be something that, would, would, that story might not happen for everyone. But I think if you are feeling a little bit stuck, there are opportunities to get involved in things that you want to, and that might be voluntary to begin with.

There might be also kind of paid opportunities and places. But I'd say if you've got that feeling, then it's, it's worthwhile having a look to see, what opportunities there are out there. [00:43:00] And I've always been the sort of person that I think I've, I've made opportunities for myself by just asking the question.

Like when, when I found the, a part of me website, they didn't actually have, a open role for a UX designer. So I, but I thought, I just thought, well, what's the harm in just message them and seeing like it's a submission that means something to me. So just drop them an email and had an email back in five minutes and then say, yes, we need a UX designer.

We've got this project to work on. So it feels like, obviously it just kind of lined up and it was just fortunate timing. But I

Nirish Shakya: But it wouldn't have, wouldn't have happened if you hadn't sent that email.

Jenna Maudlin: no, I think reaching out and just having the c confidence to, what's the worst they're gonna say no. Like, that's the worst thing that happened. I know, I know that that can feel like rejection and I understand that doesn't feel great.

But, yeah, I think that, I think that opportunities don't always happen unless you kind of ask or push it, push for it. So [00:44:00] it's, it's always worthwhile trying to have those conversations if it's something that really means something to you.

Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah. and another reason I ask that question is because,I've heard a lot of my own UX students, wanting to go into the industry, mainly so that it's financially viable for them. and, they might have a heart at something. But it might not pay as well. So they, instantly gravitated towards roles that do pay better.

how would you address that dilemma?

Jenna Maudlin: so I, I, I can definitely see where people would be coming from, from that. having felt like I was probably in that same situation myself as well. I definitely needed to, when, when I graduated, I needed to take a job to be able to afford to live. So being, like for example, if that opportunity to work at the charity had come up, [00:45:00] like, a year and a half earlier, I wouldn't have been in a position to do voluntary work when I've got other stuff going that I need to do, like get a full-time job.

and sometimes balancing like a full-time job, if it's a lot of work that's,that you've got, that you've got on, you can't then go and commit to more time. So I think it is a really, really difficult Yeah, it's a really difficult position to be in. I know that, when I've, when I've, when I've worked in, when, when I've worked in places where maybe the, the project I've been working on hasn't been something that I've necessarily been that interested in, and it has, it's been, this is part of my job and this is what I need to do. I think looking for the parts that do have meaning to me and, appreciating it as a learning experience as much as anything else. And knowing that by doing this and working on these [00:46:00] projects and working, getting to know, people and working part and part of teams, I can work towards something that I, that I really want to do.

I know it's not going to, these kind of situations, where you need a role and you need to, you need, need to support yourself. That being able to volunteer on the side isn't something that everybody's going to be able to do. But I guess having hope that, putting the work in and learning, if you know of the route that you want to go down, then you can make that happen.

I think. To be honest, I think that if the charity role hadn't have come up, I'd actually had thoughts about doing sort of a side project which would be similar of supporting children and young people through bereavement and just kind of starting stuff off on my own and initiating that project. So I guess for some people who may be feeling a little bit, low in a job that they have [00:47:00] or a little bit demotivated in a job that they have is like having a side project can actually be really helpful for your motivation. But it's a really hard, it's a really hard question to have a specific answer to cuz everybody's circumstances is going to be different at the charity. With the volunteers that I have, I try to be, we try to be as flexible as possible so that the commitment. Offer us and the experience that they can get is very much tailored to the time that they have to give and what kind of skills and experience they have and what they're looking for.

So we have some, volunteers who support, like just at workshops, for example. So that might be one to two hours every, couple of months or so. And then we have some volunteers that have got more time to give and they really wanna get involved in a project. So I guess it really is just understanding what your capacity is and what you can give, and then [00:48:00] trying to figure out what's gonna work for you.

Nirish Shakya: But I suppose there are, there's what my, I guess my message is that there are always options. And I think what you just made me realize is that whatever job or role you are currently in, it is not a, a singular, block that is basically, it's same for all the things that you do. It's more like a kaleidoscope of different elements that you can, practice and try it within that singular role.

And it is a matter of picking and choosing the ones that actually you enjoy doing and being aware of that, but at the same time, not being afraid to, start putting together a different kaleidoscope that has more of the elements that you do enjoy doing. Is that, would that be,something that resonate with, resonates with you?

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah, I, I, I, yeah, I completely agree. I think as well, something [00:49:00] that I've noticed, when I've got like projects to begin with, sometimes I'm like, oh, that's not something that I feel that interested in. But as soon as I get myself into the research, it like then becomes interesting cuz it's like, you are learning new things and I suppose if, if I, I think a lot.

From, from my experience of working with other designers, so many of us have that learning mindset where we like learning new things. So even if a project doesn't necessarily feel that glamorous or that like exciting from the surface, from the brief, once you've, once you are down the rabbit hole, it can look very different.

So I think approaching these kind of projects with an open mind can sometimes just lead to you actually realizing those things that you enjoy,or trying new things or bringing your perspective to something and trying your way with in different things and seeing what happens. I think that's kind of what I love about design as well, is like just being able to try new things and that's okay.[00:50:00]

Nirish Shakya: absolutely. I was actually having a chat with one of my, friends on the show. it was like second episode. his name is Jason Masu and what he said in that episode was,The best project is the current project you're on. Everything else is just stories in your head, right? Things that have happened in the past, the projects you've worked on, the projects you think you might work on in the future.

They're all just imagined stories that you've created in your head. But if you can be as present as possible in the project you're working on, you won't be making comparisons with the things you've done in the past or the things you might do in the future. And I'm, I, I think that's something that can probably bring more peace into the work you're doing.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah, I, I definitely, yeah, I definitely would agree with that. I think, I think there's, And there's a bit, there's a bit of danger of kind of, and I think I felt, felt this at the bbc, when I was doing the trainee scheme because I really wanted to go and work [00:51:00] in children's. I, my heart was set on it and it never happened.

so I would get, I I I wasn't very good at kind of like at that, I suppose at the time cause I was just dead set on going to children's. So when I got put into other teams and on other projects, I, the anxiety of what might be crept in so much that I was like so upset that I was gonna be working on something I didn't wanna do.

But then turned out they absolutely loved working on these projects because they definitely exceeded my expectations. So I think that, that definitely does resonate because. I think until you've actually started working with something, you just don't know how much you are, that you're going to attach, attach yourself to, or how, how important that's gonna feel, or how much you're gonna get from it.

So,

Nirish Shakya: And, and speaking of projects, you have been working on some [00:52:00] pretty cool projects, recently at Apartment B.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah. so I, there's, there's a few actually. I, I've been working on quite a lot of different projects. So ipo, I've already mentioned this one before, but recently we released, an app called Nadia, which is an app, that was designed, to support this or to give psychological support to Ukrainian families after the war broke out.

and we released that in January. So that's, And able to kind of help families connect through play, and reduce stress and, try and mitigate the issues that come up as a result of trauma and giving them support to be able to feel more calm,show themselves and others' compassion and to be [00:53:00] courageous.

That's kind of the three bits, that it does at the moment. and through that we're doing these co-design workshops in schools and we're also doing co-design workshops with Ukrainian families where we can then go on to make that app even better. So I'm supporting the project and the design team and kind working on that, which is great.

And it's really lovely to see the, the app starting to evolve and. That's kind of one of my projects that I'm working on at the moment. And what's spun out of this is, and it's connected to a project that we'd done previously. The one I mentioned Lost in Translation is something called the Firefly Project, which is completely brand new and it's something that we have just won some funding for from the Big Change.

it's part of the big education challenge, which is to trans, it's, it's a challenge to transform education. And what we're [00:54:00] doing in the Firefly project is we, well, so for the next six months, we're going to be developing our idea, which is to combine social emotional learning with design thinking as a way to talk.

To and help children through difficult times? we are, I think we are starting, we, we still need to figure out the complete details of it, but I think we are gonna be starting looking at grief and loss. And the idea is that they will, in a co we'll go into a school and we will introduce the, the theme of Nadia.

Which is the, the, oh obviously the app. And we will use storytelling to talk to them about the difficult, diff difficult circumstances such as loss, and take them through a design challenge over a series of workshops where they will work in [00:55:00] teams and they will create an, they'll take, they'll.

They will make tools and strategies that will create a emotional health toolkit for their school. So we will be able to deliver that to the school and that will be something that they can then go to use in the future if they need to. And it's tools and strategies that have been created by the kids. So it's kind of empowering them to use them by, giving them a sense of ownership and a sense of autonomy and allowing them to learn about these different social and emotional techniques that can support them, emotionally through difficult times, when they need them.

so it's kind of a, it's a, I suppose it's a bit of a hypothesis at the moment that we can combine these two, we can combine design thinking with social emotional learning, and we'll have this impact where young people will feel more compassionate to themselves and will compassionate to others. we hope, like through the empathy mapping piece, that will [00:56:00] really help them to understand when somebody, what people might feel when, they're, they're going through a loss or something is difficult going on at home or at school or whatever.

And, also be able to teach them some techniques that will help them to regulate their emotions when they're feeling overwhelmed or they're feeling anxious or,angry or something along those lines. And be able to kind of install, instill some like confidence. I think, that is one of the things that I think.

I'm quite confident is going to come through teaching design thinking. And I know that there's been a study that's been done around the confidence that increases, particularly in girls when they participate in design thinking workshops, and things like creative problem solving. So it's that combination really of 21st century skills with the social emotional skills, which I hope will build up these protective factors of [00:57:00] self-efficacy and, feeling in control as well as adaptive skills that will help them if they then go through something difficult in their life.

Nirish Shakya: I love that. And that's one of the main reasons why I decided to name this podcast Design Feeling as opposed to design thinking to bring in some of those emotional aspects, into. Our thinking process as, as designers. yeah. So it looks like we're, we're all on the same wavelength here. so how can people, learn more about this or maybe even, get involved with some of the, the brilliant work that you guys are doing.

Jenna Maudlin: I think the best, way at the moment would probably be to get in touch with me, and I can share some information that we have. We are particularly interested to speak to anyone that would be interested in, facilitating workshops or learning more about the project or, parents that want to contribute insights or can help connect us with schools.[00:58:00]

so that's kind of one of the things that we're really looking for so that people can get involved in this project. There's going to be lots of communication coming up from big change about, us being part of, with us being part of the challenge. So in terms of like links to the,to like a webpage or anything.

At the moment there's nothing online, but there, there will be coming up. So I think the best way would be to contact me directly through LinkedIn or to follow a of me on social media and to get in touch that way is the messages will come.

Nirish Shakya: Great. We will put all those links, in the show notes of the podcasting app. So if you're listening to this, you can just click on those links and get in touch with, Jenna or a part of me. But by the way, where is that name? A part of me come from?

Jenna Maudlin: so I'm, I'm not actually a hundred percent sure, but I suppose what it means to me and what I have a feeling might have come up when they were, [00:59:00] when the charity were creating the first game, which is called a part of me, and that's where the name for the charity came from as well, was this idea of when you experience a loss, that person is still a part of you.

So I think I'm not hundred percent though, but I think that that's where it's come from. yeah, that's the only thing that I can imagine. But I'm gonna find out, I'm gonna gonna definitely go back and ask like where the names come from, but I, I think that, that, I think that that has something.

Nirish Shakya: I love that there, there's definitely that deeper meaning behind the name. Awesome. So Jenna, obviously I, your, your passion for this space, oozes out of you. And my question to you would be how do you strike balance between, following that passion and working hard towards it all the same time taking care of yourself so you don't burn out?

Jenna Maudlin: It's still a work in progress. [01:00:00] It's definitely still a work in progress. I think I kind of, I, I think when you are really passionate about something, it's very difficult to sometimes take yourself away from it. And I do realize that that is sometimes happening. When I was designing Nadia, we, we had so many time constraints and wanted to make sure we could deliver it as quickly as possible, but also to a high enough standard as possible.

So I was, I was not taking as good care of myself as I should have done. so I, I have since, since kind of going through that, I have realized the importance of being able to take sort of regular breaks and being able to switch off, closing my office door helps, cuz working from home it or it makes it even harder to then detach.

But one thing that myself and the team, came up with when we were working on the loss and translation project, [01:01:00] we were working with one of our therapists. Who she, she's just, she's really good at, kind of taking care of herself and knowing what she needs. And I remember one call where, where she had joined and she was saying she was gonna be a bit late because she was just kind of running in a forest barefoot and had lost track of time.

so since then we came up with this mantra called What would Add Do. So when we get into, yeah, so when we, when we kind of identifying that we're getting into a space where maybe work and the passion is taking over, it's just that what would add do? And it's like, I'm gonna take a break. I'm gonna walk away from it.

But it's, it's one of those things that I'm still trying to figure around and I think it's probably be a consistent battle with myself to make myself first. you help helping, helping myself before helping others. It, it's quite [01:02:00] interesting though cuz in one of the workshops, that we've done in the past, we have used like the,the, the oxygen mask analogy with parents being told on airplanes that they should put their, oxygen mask on before helping a child.

And it's just kind of remembering the visualization of that sometimes if, like, if I want to be in a state to help other people, I need to be able to take care of myself first. So I think it's just, to be honest, it's constant reminding myself that I need to do that. But it's definitely still a work in progress.

I wish I could offer more, more insight or more

Nirish Shakya: No, that I think, no, I think that I love that honesty there because there is no state of perfection when it comes to self, self care wellbeing. and a lot of times we kind of crave for that state, the perfect state of calm or peace, but that probably does not exist. it's, it's just a matter of you.

How can you incorporate some of that, those elements into your day-to-day? what would be your,[01:03:00] go-to practice, outside of work to help, I dunno, refill your created juices or recharge your batteries?

Jenna Maudlin: so I, I used, so I used to run like all of the time. I n not quite.

Nirish Shakya: No,

Jenna Maudlin: fun though.

Nirish Shakya: not that hard. Call.

Jenna Maudlin: not that hardcore. No, I, so I used to run quite a lot. I've ran, like, I, I, I did some quite insane running, running challenges for charity back in 2017 and 2018, but I got injured during the pandemic. I broke my foot.

At home just be,

Nirish Shakya: Oh, wow.

Jenna Maudlin: told us to stay at home cause we'd be safer and

Nirish Shakya: does one break their foot at home?

Jenna Maudlin: there was some gym equipment on the floor that, because everything obviously had to be brought into the house, like, or there was more stuff brought into the house because we couldn't go to the gym. and I managed to like kick my foot off this really heavy weight.

[01:04:00] So I broke my foot and then, then trying to run again. I've hurt my knee. So I've been struggling to actually find something that gives me that same space as a running did as I'm trying to get back into kind of fitness cuz it's been a while. So I think at the moment it's just kind of going for a walk cuz it's still kind of the same.

It's, I definitely haven't found something that's close to running. So I think really the mission is trying to get myself back running again.

Nirish Shakya: Love that. Love that. So speaking of superpowers, what's the one superpower that you don't have that you wish you did?

Jenna Maudlin: Ooh, that's a really interesting question. One superpower. Nobody has ever asked me this before, so I do not have a prepared answer or any indication of an answer. Oh, I [01:05:00] think for me, It. I f to be honest, it probably, it probably is the self-care, superpower. It's like, I think I've got, I'm very good at knowing when I need to do something different or when I need to take care of myself, but actually actioning that or giving myself that and giving myself permission to do that is something that is not a superpower of mine and I do struggle with. So yeah, I think it's giving, giving myself permission to look after myself, which sounds really, sounds really strange, but, yeah, I think that is

Nirish Shakya: So what stops you from giving yourself permission?

Jenna Maudlin: I really dunno. I've only just kind of had that realization just here that, that, that that's what happens. I think. I think it's, so, I, I actually went on a course [01:06:00] like at the end of last year, which was like some, what's usually, what's your strongest trait is also some is something of a weakness. So I'd say I am a very passionate person, so when I'm doing stuff that I'm passionate about, I'm all in.

So I think giving myself permission, it's like letting myself off the hook to be passionate about my self-care more so than the thing I'm passionate about at that time. So it's probably the kind of shadow side I suppose, of that passion is that's what's not giving me permission to, to take care of myself in that moment.

And that realization has just kind.

Nirish Shakya: That's some really deep stuff there. No, I love that. I love that. so Jenna, imagine that it's your last day on earth and you are on your deathbed. and someone comes up to you with a tiny piece of Post-it and a Sharpie [01:07:00] and asks you to write your last few words for humanity. What would you write on that tiny post-it.

Jenna Maudlin: Oh,

I think it would be something like Always have hope. I've been doing, I've been doing quite a lot of kind of strategy and user mapping work at the moment, and I was on a two day kind of residential workshop for the big change project last week. And one of the things that massively keeps reoccurring is how hope.

Can just be so useful and helpful in times of difficulty, in times of despair and being, having that belief in yourself and that hope that things will get better. and I think the absence of that is, yeah, I think, I think the [01:08:00] absence of hope is just very bleak and being able to have hope just means there's potential for things to get better and it just makes, makes life that little bit easier to deal with when it does get tough.

Nirish Shakya: Mm. Yeah. And, and, and thanks to our negativity bias, it can be really difficult to have hope when you're struggling with, whatever you're struggling with. 

Jenna Maudlin: A hundred percent. 

Nirish Shakya: you said, I think, yeah, maybe like, if I have, if I have to kind of visualize hope, it's probably like, I dunno, like a tiny bit, amount of water in a, in a mug that tends to just evaporate as you go through your day.

Maybe you gotta, we need to kind of proactively refill that level of hope each day, so that we don't run dry off that hope.

Jenna Maudlin: I like that. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think as well as like more things happen as well, it's so easy for [01:09:00] that little dribble of hope that you have to get smaller and smaller and

Nirish Shakya: Hmm.

Jenna Maudlin: it, yeah. But, I think it, it, it might be quite an ideal way of looking at the world, but I feel like hope is just so important to, to help us get through some of the difficult challenges and some of the difficult days that happen.

Nirish Shakya: Yeah, absolutely. Great. Thanks so much for that, Jenna. I'm going to do a quick recap of, some of the amazing things I've learned today. and yeah, it's been absolutely fascinating seeing the, the world that you operate in, which is the intersection of, design, education, therapy, playfulness, strengths, self-compassion.

I mean, there are like so many really cool topics there that, I'm personally passionate about. and yeah, I, I'm pretty sure like, it's something that brings you a lot of joy and meaning as well. but at the same time, I just loved all [01:10:00] these cool. techniques that you use in terms of co co-designing your products and services to help young people know more about themselves, which is something that is very much lacking in our school education or university education or whatever kind, kind of education.

It's more, more focuses on the craft, the external craft, rather than the internal knowledge of who you are and what you're good at. But then again, using that knowledge as your power to then help help other people seems to be the key here. and Lo also loved, your advice for people who are currently stuck or feeling stuck to basically, look forward things that are already good within that kaleidoscope of the role that you do, but at the same time, also start to build these new opportunities.

and even if it's not there or it's not apparent on the surface, don't be afraid to ask. like you said, the worst thing that can happen is you are gonna get a no. So what, and even though it can be very [01:11:00] scary, but just like anything else, it just takes practice of just taking that note. And that's what designers are good at.

We're good at embracing the unknown and then, and the ambiguity, and operate within, within that. another thing that I, I think another realization I had was, in terms of like planning your own career, maybe we need to pay a long game, right? It doesn't have to be like perfect, straight away. sometimes you just get the, the timing right?

For example, if you had come across that opportunity to work for a charity a year and a half earlier, then you wouldn't be ready for it. But because it came later, you were in a, in a much better position to, to take it. So maybe things happen, do happen for a reason, and. I also love the work you doing doing around, incorporating that social emotional aspect into design thinking.

Something that I think we all need to be doing, regardless of, whether we are working for, a charity in what you do or even in a corporate role. Cause I think emotions plays such [01:12:00] a huge role in a lot of our day-to-day decision making and, the behaviors that we're trying to design for our, for our users. another note I taken is, maybe try going for a run in a forest barefoot. and also how important it is to give ourselves permission to look after ourselves.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah.

Nirish Shakya: we might know what the right thing to do is, but we might not give ourselves the permission to do it.

Jenna Maudlin: Mm-hmm.

Nirish Shakya: and this is going to be a long journey, not everything's gonna be rosy, so always have hope because things will get better.

Jenna Maudlin: Yeah,

Nirish Shakya: Wow. Such deep conversations there. Jenna, thank you so much for, sharing all your insights and wisdom. I've definitely learned loads. so what's, what's next for you then, Jenna? Like, what's, what's coming up that's exciting in the horizon?

Jenna Maudlin: So the. [01:13:00] The big change, big education challenge just kicked off on Thursday and Friday last week. So I'm gonna be frantically creating a project plan, with the, with more knowledge now that we kind of know what's, what's coming next and, pulling together that project and working with that team over the next six months.

The idea is to kind of validate some of the ideas and experiment, which is gonna be so much fun to, to try different ways of working in the workshops and figure out what works and what doesn't work, and be able to really craft that idea, fully fledged concept so that we can hopefully get more funding to be able to pilot it across schools next year.

So I think. I think that's the thing that's given me the, the kind of the fire to really go and [01:14:00] explore and experiment and on this journey over the next six months, I think, working with the big change is really exciting because they have, learning program that kind of accompany, it's like learning support as well.

So it's gonna be a journey with the other finalists, learning from them learning more about their ideas and just getting the opportunity to really explore this concept that has been, well, it feels like it's been in the making for the last two years. and at the same time being able to work on some of the, supporting the phase two development of Nadia.

So there's some really good and meaningful. Work coming up, which I'm really excited about.

Nirish Shakya: Awesome. And if you'd like to get in touch with Jenna and, be part of some of the amazing work that, she's currently working on, please do reach out, to [01:15:00] Jenna. And, um, yeah. So thank you so much, Jenna for, joining me today on the Design Fitting Podcast. Um, it's been a wonderful conversation. Have certainly learned loads and, hopefully I'll see you again soon.

Jenna Maudlin: Yep. It's been really great to to chat with you and yeah, hopefully see you again soon.

Nirish Shakya: That's the end of season three and what an incredible journey it's been. This is Nirish Shakya, and I want to thank you for joining me in the season of Design Feeling. We've journey through bootcamps in parenthood and even the UX of sex, and explored the intricacies of being the human, doing the human-centered design. Through every episode, my intention has been to learn methods and tools to help you know the unique selves that you are, and empower yourselves to be more creatively confident so that you can do the work that gives you the joy and meaning you seek. And thanks to our insightful guests and to you, our listeners for shaping this season. It's been great to have so [01:16:00] many of you reach out to me over the last few months, and I feel like we're starting to lay the foundations for a strong community here. So if you're interested in being part of that or maybe even co-designing it together, please do send me an email. I'd love to hear from you, and we've got some awesome guests and some exciting plans lined up for season four, which will start in July. Until then you have some time to catch up on any episodes that you've missed this season. This is Nirish Shakya signing off. See you next season.